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  1. #1

    HI from South London

    Hi Folks,

    I hope you are all keeping safe and well in these extraordinary times!!

    Well, I have been 'lurking' for a while and finally plucked up the courage to say hi and discuss my plans for my first pond.

    Whilst new to ponds, certainly not new to the 'wet stuff', having kept aquariums for nearly 20 years and right now have 3 reef aquariums dotted around the house

    Ok, about a year or so ago I decided that I wanted to keep koi and planned a big and beautiful formal pond, even got a few build quotes from some reputable koi pond builders in my area (as my DIY skills are pretty hopeless) - fast forward a few months and my plans were shot to pieces, as we apparently 'needed' a loft extension, extend our already large kitchen/diner, and therefore also a needed a new kitchen - which devastated my pond budget. So pond plans were put on hold.

    Fast forward a few more months, kitchen extension now complete, survived a personal health scare and now living through this scary pandemic - i find myself wanting to resurrect my pond dream, though now with a much depleted budget.

    so, rather than the formal, half-sunken concrete/fibreglassed affair dedicated to koi- now thinking of a more 'natural' sunken wildlife pond, with the odd small koi and goldfish, with a 3-tier pre-formed waterfall/cascade

    The pond is likely to be about 4m x 2.5m (at widest) x1m (deepest) with some shelves for marginal plants circa 2000 gallons/10000Litres??)

    Now given the new location for the pond, I wont be able to dig another deep hole for the filtration, so now most likely will need to be a pump driven system, rather than gravity fed to filter.

    So, this brings me to my first set of questions

    1) I would like to have the option of converting the pond to a fully fledged koi pond in the future, so was thinking of fitting a bottom drain from the outset and perhaps blocking the 4" pipework initially and continue to use a in pond pump OR, perhaps I could use the BD with a pump fed filter (perhaps inline pump?) OR even using some kind of 'sump' placed at the same level as the sunken pond, fed by the BD and place a pump in their to feed the filter. - does any of that make sense?

    2) The 2nd question is regarding the filter - assuming, pond volume of 10000L(ish) and initially only keeping a couple of koi and mainly goldfish - would something like a EasyPod or Oase Biotec Screenmatic 2 be ok or should I consider something else? bearing in mind my budget will likely be circa £800)

    3) Pond liner? what would you guys recommend? PVC? Butyl? EPDM?

    4) ..and finally (for now) surface skimmers - I m not sure about built-in skimmer at the moment - how essential is this? would a floating standalone be good compromise?

    Sorry for all the questions (especially in my first post) - ...and I am sure there will be many more...

    Thanks

    Asif



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  3. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi and Welcome.

    I'll try and answer some of your questions...

    1) First thing that springs to mind is that if you can have a sump for the bottom drain to fill up (which would work as per your idea), then that is surely no different to having a gravity fed filter instead of a sump?

    2) I personally don't think either of those filters would be up to the job on 10,000 litres. A Nexus 220 (second hand can be dirt cheap) would be the minimum I'd go for, but it has a large footprint which may not be suitable based on your description of not being able to dig a hole near the pond. Obviously you could have it above ground and pump fed, but it will be a million times more efficient if gravity fed and semi sunken.

    3) EPDM is the one I'd opt for. If going for a formal shape pay the extra for a Box Welded Liner.... £300 to £400 for the pond size you are talking about, and it will be made to measure.

    4) Most people say skimmers are a must. I don't have one on my pond. I find spring time the worst for surface debris but I just go round the surface with a fine net to clear everything up now and again.

    Finally, going back to your issue with sinking a gravity fed filter next to the pond, have you considered having your pond semi-raised and therefore being able to use a gravity fed filter that wouldn't need sinking into the ground, or only by a few inches?


    As you can tell from my response, bottom drain and gravity fed is the way to go. You need to explore all possibilities before opting for pump fed.

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  5. #3
    Hi RS2000, thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions

    OK, I perhaps should have given a little info in my original post

    Due to the new positioning of the pond, I will have limited space for digging another hole for a big filter. The reason for suggesting a sump was that the footprint could potentially be much smaller (2ft x 2ft for example)

    Similarly, a large nexus 220+ would be a challenge in the space I will have available. Of course, one option could be to reduce the size of the pond to allow for more filter space - but not sure I like that ides

    I was also thinking EPDM (0.75mm). The pond will be irregular so box welded wont make sense - but that's fine

    going back to the filter question - given I am no longer planning for an out and out koi pond and will most likely stick with goldfish, shubunkin, orfes, (with the odd koi) etc - perhaps I won't need such a heavy duty filter? - any other recommendations for a pump-fed, small foot print options?

    oh, I should mentioned, that as I going for a 'natural' pond with rock waterfall - I don't think raising the pond would work - want it to be as natural as possible

    Thanks
    Last edited by Manic_asif; 07-05-2020 at 04:27 PM.

  6. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    Hello and welcome.
    If you keep stock levels to a moderate amount and not too worried about having the perfect clarity then maybe an easypod could just do what you're wanting. Pump fed up to the easypod which returns at the head of the waterfall. The easypod could be covered and blended behind a large plant or bamboo. If you're trying to keep costs down I have a cheap easypod which has a small hole drilled in the top where a uv was going to be installed. I'm selling for £160 including media and lid.
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

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  8. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    If sticking with Shubunkins and Goldfish, then the Eazypod should just about do it. I don't think you'll get crystal clear water all year round but it should be enough to keep them healthy. A drum filter is the best solution, but the cheapest start at around £950 (plus cost for bio chamber) which is a bit of a stretch based on your budget, and possibly overkill if you're not keeping Koi.

    Don't forget a UV as well to stop water going green.

    If going the natural route with waterfall etc then you'll possibly have the opportunity to add plants which may also help. I would sterilise any plants before adding to the pond / waterfall to ensure they don't bring in parasites.

    0.75 EPDM will do the job. I went for 1mm but in all honesty its probably overkill, but my thinking was to pay the extra because to reduce the risk of having to rip out and replace a thinner liner if a brick or something fell in the pond and tore it.

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  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    You must have posted when I was typing Andy!

    That's a good price on the eazypod.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  12. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Hi and welcome to the forum


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  14. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    You must have posted when I was typing Andy!

    That's a good price on the eazypod.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Great minds.....
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

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  16. #9
    Hi Folks

    Just a quick update

    I will post up some pics later today or tomorrow

    So the Dig is almost complete and will be sort of pear shaped

    It will be 5m long and 2.5m at its widest , but averaging 1.5-1.7m wise

    50% will be around 1m deep and a couple of steps up to the narrow end

    There will be a rock waterfall, coming down to the ‘shallow end’

    Given I couldn’t go with a bottom drain, I think keeping koi will probably be out of the question or perhaps a maximum of 2 smallish ones, so will mainly be normal pond fish

    In terms of filter, I have decided to with kockney koi multi bay (5000 due to space) with vortex or an easypod with perhaps some added biological media in a waterfall box

    The one I go for will depend on what becomes available on classified and quickish delivery

    Liner will be 0.75 epdm for both pond and waterfall

    I will need some help with picking a return pump and guidance on whether I should get a separate pump for the waterfall or get an oversized controllable main pump and supply both filter and waterfall with a tee and ball valves (any guidance will be appreciated)

    So, will post some pics tomorrow with more details of my plans

    Asif


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  18. #10
    Hi Folks

    So finally have a date for the EPDM Liner - should be arriving middle of next week!

    In meantime, I essentially completed the 'hole' - attached some pics from a couple of weeks ago. I have since some adjustments and lowered the shelves and steps by 8-9inches at least. The deepest depth is now exactly 1m

    25338238-9936-4d69-99de-24c27efc19f0.JPG

    IMG_6300.JPGIMG_6301.JPG

    IMG_6327.JPG

    IMG_6328.JPG

    IMG_6330.JPG


    These should give you guys an idea of the size and shape. I propose to have a cascade coming down from between the two 'trees' - the drop is around 1.4m from top of cascade to surface of pond

    now I have still have the dilemma of choosing the correct filter/pump

    will post my thoughts in next post

  19. #11
    Now, having kept marine and reef aquariums for a very long time, I should have known that there will be a myriad of options for filtration for ponds - but naively thought it would be a straightforward decision - how wrong I was

    So, here are my options (I think) and would love to hear peoples opinions and guidance on the options

    Firstly, I should state the following is a given
    - pond will be approx 5m x 2.5M (at widest) x 1M (at deepest)
    - filtration needs to be pump-fed, as wasn't feasible to add a bottom drain
    - there will be a cascade/waterfall running approx 3m from a height of around 1.4m form the pond surface
    - area for filter will not accommodate a super large filter(e.g. Nexus 220/320) - Easy Pod size would be fine (or even a multi-bay - as they are long, but narrow)

    So there is my thinking (sorry for all the options)

    a) Single Oversized variable pump feeding an EasyPod and T-eed to also feed the waterfall (also a couple of ball valves to regulate the flow to each)
    - sub-option1 here is to have a pump-fed sieve just before the waterfall (so Pump to easypod and T'eed to sieve which gravity feeds the waterfall
    - sub-option2 is to replace the sieve in the above option with a simple pump fed waterfall filter to add some extra bio filtration

    b) Have an oversized Pressure filter, fed by a matched pump, that returns uphill via the waterfall. By oversized I mean something like https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/pond ... 00-litres/

    c) Have a decent Box filter (e.g. https://www.swelluk.com/oase-biotec-scr ... nd-filter/) either fed by a dedicated matched pump with a separate pump feeding the waterfall or go with an oversized pump and t-off waterfall supply

    d) Multichamber (e.g. Kockney Koi) - I don’t think I could go with the 10000 version (just too big) but could squeeze ina 5000 version and then perhaps also use a pressurised filter to feed the waterfall and get extra filtration in the bargain

    I also had a couple of other versions,(e.g. Bead filter), but think its most likely be one of the above options

    Now I should say I am not averse getting my hands dirty every now and then, and certainly not looking for a complete automated system - but at the same time, don't want to be having to clean filter on a daily basis

    Also, the pond will most likely be filled with Goldfish, shubunkins, etc - so I don't believe I need koi level filtration, but at the same time I want a well filtered system

    budget for filtration (including pumps, media and waterfall feed) is around the £1000 mark (lower ideally)

    Ok, I will stop boring you all senseless now and ask for some feedback/guidance on the options

    PS I am not precious about these options, so if anyone has any good alternatives - please go ahead and suggest ,

    Many thanks
    Asif
    Last edited by Manic_asif; 15-06-2020 at 06:40 PM.

  20. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Pond looks very nice.

    If going pump fed you'll want all the shelves sloping towards the pump, but also you are still at a stage where a bottom drain can be added, and it is worth fitting one. It will save you so much maintenance.

    Personally I'd get rid of the different levels (except the top shelf for plants etc) so as to increase pond water volume which will keep the water parameters and temperatures more stable and allow for more fish.

    In view of all those trees a skimmer would be another consideration.

    Overall I think it's going to look great when finished.



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  22. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KyKoi's Avatar
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    4’’ bottom drain to easy pod to Uv to pump to pressure filter back to pond. Sorted HI from South London


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  24. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Pond looks very nice.

    If going pump fed you'll want all the shelves sloping towards the pump, but also you are still at a stage where a bottom drain can be added, and it is worth fitting one. It will save you so much maintenance.

    Personally I'd get rid of the different levels (except the top shelf for plants etc) so as to increase pond water volume which will keep the water parameters and temperatures more stable and allow for more fish.

    In view of all those trees a skimmer would be another consideration.

    Overall I think it's going to look great when finished.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Thanks for the kind words RS2000 - but lets see if looks nice when I am finally done

    The pics i posted were of a couple of weeks ago, I have since shaped drastically reduced the 'steps' and also the top shelve and also made the central part wider. I was hoping to take pics today before I posted, but the heavens opened and I didn't fancy getting soaked

    There are two reasons, I'd like to keep the steps

    a) The pond has a significant slope going uphill to the shallow end. I had a choice of lowering the shallow end or building a retaining wall at the deep end. Neither seemed appealing. so the shallow end will be very shallow and filled with rocks (mix of Yorkstone and slate) & plants, and effectively become part of the cascade - i felt that would be easy way to 'hide' the slope to some extent

    b) I think I have moved away completely from the Koi side of things and intend to keep more basis pond fish, and turn this into a semi-wildlife pond. Not mentioned before,, but there will be footbridge going over the middle of the pond (span around 1.8m)

    Thats also the reason, I am not too keen to install a bottom drain, as I really don't know where I would dig the hole for the gravity fed filter or even how I would position the 4" pipework to the filter area. This dig almost killed me - I don't think I can dig another inch let alone another 600 x 600 x 600 hole

    ..and finally (and probably the most important) I have to keep SWMBO happy - she is already having a fit that I have eaten into her lawn area. I figured, if I keep this pond simple and more 'natural' - this time next year, I can put my 'secondary plan' into action - which is to build a koi pond closer to the house adjacent to the patio area (I will post up some pics of that area tomorrow) - this would be 70-80% above ground and a concrete build - definitely, bottom drain, as gravity fed filters will be a doddle (also one of the reasons I am being a little more stingy with this pond)

    Hope that makes more sense - but if anyone can give some guidance how I can gte a bottom drain into this one, without killing myself - I am all ears

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  26. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KyKoi View Post
    4’’ bottom drain to easy pod to Uv to pump to pressure filter back to pond. Sorted HI from South London


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    so make it sound so easy KyKoi

    ..but, I am surprised my heart hasn't given up on me yet - just had double stent out in in January due to blocked arteries - don't want to push my luck

    OK, so how about

    oversized pump to EasyPod, (gravity return to pond) and same Pump t'eed to either pressure filter to waterfall or to pump-fed sieve to waterfall?

    or a separate pump to feed sieve, but also pull in from side/wall skimmer ?

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  28. #16
    BTW I should mentioned that the red lines on the tile at the shallow end are the possible water levels - most likely the bottom one

  29. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by KyKoi View Post
    4’’ bottom drain to easy pod to Uv to pump to pressure filter back to pond. Sorted HI from South London


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Switch the pressure filter for moving bed. Loads more biological filtration after the easy for mechanical


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  30. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I built a tiny wildlife pond this year Manic, only to keep wildlife away from the koi pond by having something in-ground and small with easy access, and am amazed at what it has attracted. Loads of birds and their chicks visit it every day, also dragon flies and I've seen 1 newt.

    No frogs yet because I built it too late in the year.

 

 

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