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  1. #41
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Just moving away from blue bowls but sticking with the subject of Koi tax for a second....


    250ml of Tetra Aquasafe dechlorinates 450 litres of water and costs £8.59

    1kg of Sodium Thiosulphate crystals dechlorinates 346,154 litres of water and costs £5.10


    If you wanted to buy enough Tetra Aquasafe to dechlorinate the same amount of water that 1kg of ST crystals treats, it would cost you £6,607

    So that's a choice of £5.10 or £6607 to treat the same volume of water.

    That has to be Koi Tax at its most outrageous.

    But I understand, supply, demand, manufacturers and dealers have families (or entire countries) to feed... etc etc
    koi tax or horses for courses? if you have a small aquarium it’s ideal... buying in quantity will always be cost efficient, 20gm of artemia cysts against 1kg? 1kg of feed against 15kg?


    Generic chems will will always be cheaper than those that are licensed and approved for koi use?
    Last edited by Davej; 02-07-2019 at 07:43 PM.

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  3. #42
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Whatever it is Dave, it's not supply and demand in this case seeing its a mass produced product.

    To some degree I understand the blue bowl situation being a specialised product for a niche market, even Artemia, Saki Hikari etc.

    The first seller I clicked on for the Tetra Aquasafe on eBay has sold 372 bottles since 3rd June 2019. The second seller has sold 3690 since November 2016 for the smaller bottle size.

    Koi tax isn't really applicable to this produce because it has a much wider use, but its certainly a damn good profit whichever way you look at it.

    Of course, the buyers of this product aren't buying in bulk, but the manufacturer is.

    If someone had the inclination to get paperwork in order there's definitely an online market if you can produce the same stuff at home without the overheads and have a nice little side business.

    One major concern is evident in the technical datasheet for API tapwater conditioner that we should all be aware of..... Apparently ST crystals can cause loss of sexual desire

    Anyone going to own up to that????

    https://www.apifishcare.com/pdf/Tap_...ditioner-1.pdf

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  5. #43
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai TAC's Avatar
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    Another rip off Silkworm Pupae 800g around the £20 mark a great Koi treat.

    Buy 2.5 times the amount above 2Kg Chubby Dried Silkworm Pupae £12.49 same stuff with no fish sticker on it



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  7. #44
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    The people who are going to 'rip off' your newbies is the garden centre franchises with staff who know little and boxes of pressure filters stacked up to the roof.
    How many of you here can say you never ever fell for marketing claims on the box at the start of the hobby? I started off with a Hozelock pressure filter FYI. 6 month later I replaced it for a very. expensive Oase pressure filter. I could virtually have bought a Nexus with what I spent on crap in first 3 years of ponding

  8. #45
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAC View Post
    Another rip off Silkworm Pupae 800g around the £20 mark a great Koi treat.

    Buy 2.5 times the amount above 2Kg Chubby Dried Silkworm Pupae £12.49 same stuff with no fish sticker on it



    That's a good find, a bargain at that price.

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  10. #46
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    This thread is also a good reason why Forums must continue to exist, I have bought a few things based on recommendations here. It is also good for competition thus benefiting all of us.

    I only joined here early last year and until that point I'd always used API tap water conditioner. It is one of the best bang for buck conditioners (£7 for 6700 litres), but on here I learned how to make my own for pennies.

    In fact I wonder why we don't have a forum sponsor section with threads that businesses can discuss and market their products.

    Lets just imagine for a moment that a company like Draco had a section on here and a knowledgeable member of staff to discuss their product, I'm sure they would sell a few drums off the back of it.

    A few of my Car forums have these sections and they're the first port of call for specialist parts (car alarm systems; wheels; common failure parts; group buys; specialist insurance etc) and members regularly direct newbies in need of certain products to these sections.

    The group buys are brilliant as we'll get say 100 orders in for a product and have a company manufacture them, so much cheaper than having the product manufactured as a one off.

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  12. #47
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    That's a cracking idea mate really like that . Ins and out before buying then trouble shooting

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

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  14. #48
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Yes its its a fair size.

    The colour is important, blue is the tradional backdrop and works well photo wise, and the tradional shade of blue is the ideal as this gives some idea of the true colours on the koi..

    round is is pretty essential in giving the fish the ability to turn and calm down, more accidents happen in rectangular “bowls” with jumpers.

    pop ups are great but bowling a fish in the pond saves the stress of socking and lifting..

    Dave
    I wasn't talking about socking and lifting ... I was talking about using the blue paddling pool as a bowl in the pond (just as you would a hard plastic one) as I've seen some of the jap farms doing ...

    Covers all the requirements and has a lot of advantages over hard plastic e.g. easier to store, easier to transport, easier to lift and is more gentle on a panicking fish ... all for about £10 ...

    The only thing I see that will put some of you off is the price .... and the awful stigma that paying a small amount for a product to use with koi seems to make some of you feel ... (that's not aimed at you Dave just a general comment at my confusion as to why high prices are so important to some).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IMO for me it's practicality and value for money that's important (I'll pay a high price if I think it's worth it) ... but I would use e.g. the blue paddling pool no problem because the many advantages it offers make sense to me and obviously some of the jap farms. I'm not worried that I have paid about £400 less ... I am happy about it ... no matter what some on here would say about that behind my back.

    On a similar note I remember going through all of this before when I first started telling people about alternative (and sometimes better products) e.g. that they didn't have to pay the extortionate price for Gold Label pond sealant and that you can buy the same MsPolymer adhesive/sealant for about £4 a tube (or even less in bulk) re-badged and that Polyurethane (even cheaper) was a better and stronger multipurpose pond sealant for most tasks a few years ago (if anybody wants comprehensive details about sealants it's off topic here but just PM me).

    All the same "koi tax is only spoken about by people who can't afford products complaining about fair prices" type insults etc. were levelled at me and lot's of totally unfounded marketing hype was quoted to apparently justify the 5 fold price difference for the tubes with cartoon fish on them ... etc. and there was lot's of other time wasting by just a small group of people when I was only trying to help give everybody better value for money.

    The funny thing now though is I see sense has prevailed and some of those who were most vocally against my advice at the time are actually using what I suggested and passing on that advice to others now LOL!

    To me "Koi tax" is just a humorous figure of speech that I have seen used by a wide variety of people when they see two very similar/identical products with a sometimes ridiculous price difference if they have the word "koi" or pictures of koi or cartoon fish on the packaging ... using the expression has no bearing on the persons character or how much money anybody earns ... that suggestion is just pointless and offensive ...

    And in a nutshell the only thing I really don't like seeing is newbies/inexperienced on the forum being directed towards the higher prices and being told that anything that costs less is inferior ... which simply isn't true ... as I've proven against much opposition (from only a small group mind you) time after time on the forum here.

    I've got nothing insulting to say to those who want to pay the high prices ... that's up to you ... if you feel it's value for money (in your case) then I've nothing to say ... just don't get upset when people have different opinions/priorities/values to you ... people should have a free choice to choose what they want to pay or say about any product here hassle free ...

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  16. #49
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I think it might have been your test thread of various sealants that saved me a good few quid.

    Does this ring a bell: MS Polymer is best.... except EPDM to EPDM / PU best for EPDM to EPDM and very good for other stuff etc etc, was that you a couple of years back?

    I ended up using MS290 for everything, under £8 for 2 tubes delivered and it sealed everything with loads left over and did a pretty damn good job of EPDM to EPDM too as I sealed over an old liner for the bottom drain when extending pond.

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  18. #50
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai AlanF's Avatar
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    These are available:-

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hessian-Hair-Shirt-Cilice-/163426132028?var=


    just in case anyone needs one...

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  20. #51
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I think it might have been your test thread of various sealants that saved me a good few quid.

    Does this ring a bell: MS Polymer is best.... except EPDM to EPDM / PU best for EPDM to EPDM and very good for other stuff etc etc, was that you a couple of years back?

    I ended up using MS290 for everything, under £8 for 2 tubes delivered and it sealed everything with loads left over and did a pretty damn good job of EPDM to EPDM too as I sealed over an old liner for the bottom drain when extending pond.

    You've got it the wrong way round ... PU is best all round (apart from EPDM liner) which is where MS Polymer has a small advantage (and you need to follow the priming advice on the thread to get the best results with EPDM). But don't worry MSP is very good too as long as small beads are used ...

    PU will cure right through even very thick beads very quickly .... MSP is great for very small beads but will only cure to the depth of a couple of mm and even years later the centre of beads or thick beds can still be "fluid" so that's worth keeping in mind for the application you want it for.

    In general just use PU for anything that doesn't require a bond to EPDM ... and MSP (which is what Gold Label is) for anything EPDM (proper priming and prep is crucial).

    *Note*... don't expect any tube adhesive/sealant to Bond EPDM to EPDM under pressure for a large joint ... unless it's physically clamped too.

    If you want advice for a specific application PM me or start a new thread ...

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  22. #52
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I would strongly advise against buying random cheap paddling pools.
    Many are treated with a fungicide in the plastic that can harm your koi. Rather a false economy then, eh

  23. #53
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    I would strongly advise against buying random cheap paddling pools.
    Many are treated with a fungicide in the plastic that can harm your koi. Rather a false economy then, eh
    I'd be interested in you expanding on how you know that ... must be some strength of chemicals they use for it to harm fish in the short period of time a fish is usually bowled for? ... that I think would be a real environmental hazard too ...

    I never mentioned or advised buying "random" anything ... the link I included is for Intex pools.

    When I contacted Intex they told me that they use the same plastic for all their pool products and that is the same as the popular steel framed pools many have used for years housing koi for even extended periods without problem ... they told me there was nothing in the plastic that would harm fish.

    So what kind of fish harming fungicide do you know they use in paddling pools? .... just sounds like another koi myth type assumption to me ... if you provide a link to some proof I will contact Intex again and find out why they lied to me ... or maybe it is another brand you are familiar with the construction of?

    Like I said just sounds like another marketing myth or forum chinese whispers to me ... but I've got an open mind and am interested in seeing the evidence for your statements ...

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  25. #54
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    I wasn't talking about socking and lifting ... I was talking about using the blue paddling pool as a bowl in the pond (just as you would a hard plastic one) as I've seen some of the jap farms doing ...

    Covers all the requirements and has a lot of advantages over hard plastic e.g. easier to store, easier to transport, easier to lift and is more gentle on a panicking fish ... all for about £10 ...

    The only thing I see that will put some of you off is the price .... and the awful stigma that paying a small amount for a product to use with koi seems to make some of you feel ... (that's not aimed at you Dave just a general comment at my confusion as to why high prices are so important to some).


    Hi,

    Think it is rather apples and pears with bowl v paddling pool.

    Ive seen paddling pools used in mud pond harvests where they are used as a quick storage place for the fish that have been gathered by in the seine net, but the koi are lifted into these. In a bowling situation you want your receptical to have a fairly neutral buoyance so the fish can be pan netted into it, I suspect that a paddling pool would be both cumbersome and have rather too much buoyancy?

    Hassle wise blowing up, cleaning, drying off and packing up is a pain.

    All I was looking for were any similar cheaper plastic bowls, the nearest "match"are the excellent Denby 1m fibreglass bowls., the only disadvantage they have over the plastic ones are that they are somewhat less buoyant and need the lip of the bowl to have some additional protection added.

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  27. #55
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Hi,

    Think it is rather apples and pears with bowl v paddling pool.

    Ive seen paddling pools used in mud pond harvests where they are used as a quick storage place for the fish that have been gathered by in the seine net, but the koi are lifted into these. In a bowling situation you want your receptical to have a fairly neutral buoyance so the fish can be pan netted into it, I suspect that a paddling pool would be both cumbersome and have rather too much buoyancy?

    Hassle wise blowing up, cleaning, drying off and packing up is a pain.

    All I was looking for were any similar cheaper plastic bowls, the nearest "match"are the excellent Denby 1m fibreglass bowls., the only disadvantage they have over the plastic ones are that they are somewhat less buoyant and need the lip of the bowl to have some additional protection added.
    I was just making a point ... I didn't seriously think you would really have wanted to use a £6 paddling pool ... but it did cover all the criteria and they could be and are used for bowling purposes when partially filled with water.

    If I was you Dave I'd probably look into getting one made ... that's what I've done in the past ... e.g. when I was looking for suitable containers for my first compact filter design I searched for ages and couldn't find anything online that was the right shape (square with straight sides) and the right height and volume for the space I had ... one day I was out shopping and spotted a container that was of ideal shape and dimensions being used to hold stock for sale in a warehouse type sales outlet.

    All I did was asked the manager where he got them ... then phoned the moulding company and asked if I could buy some direct but change some of the specifications ... it turned out they had no problem with that at all and so I changed the wall thickness from a nominal 3mm to 6mm and had the polyethylene density changed from medium to high which cost a whopping £9 extra... sky blue was one of the many colours I was offered at no extra charge but because it was for a filter I chose yellow as for me it gives me the best contrast to see if mulm is gathering on the filter floor.

    They had no problem talking at length about all aspects of the changes I wanted to make and as they also make the shells for the Roto Concept Shower I had no problem trusting that they understood what I was wanting to use the product for ... it was a very enlightening experience. In the end I got two unique containers made for £55 each including delivery directly from them. Obviously it was a lot cheaper because they already had the moulds so it was just a case of paying for the plastic.

    But that's what I would be looking to do if I needed a rigid plastic bowl of that size ... find a plastic moulding company (most of them make to order) that has a suitable mould (and it's not exactly an uncommon shape) and just get one made to your spec. ... it was far easier than I ever expected and you might get a surprise at how cheap it could be ...

  28. #56
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    I was just making a point ... I didn't seriously think you would really have wanted to use a £6 paddling pool ... but it did cover all the criteria and they could be and are used for bowling purposes when partially filled with water.

    If I was you Dave I'd probably look into getting one made ... that's what I've done in the past ... e.g. when I was looking for suitable containers for my first compact filter design I searched for ages and couldn't find anything online that was the right shape (square with straight sides) and the right height and volume for the space I had ... one day I was out shopping and spotted a container that was of ideal shape and dimensions being used to hold stock for sale in a warehouse type sales outlet.

    All I did was asked the manager where he got them ... then phoned the moulding company and asked if I could buy some direct but change some of the specifications ... it turned out they had no problem with that at all and so I changed the wall thickness from a nominal 3mm to 6mm and had the polyethylene density changed from medium to high which cost a whopping £9 extra... sky blue was one of the many colours I was offered at no extra charge but because it was for a filter I chose yellow as for me it gives me the best contrast to see if mulm is gathering on the filter floor.

    They had no problem talking at length about all aspects of the changes I wanted to make and as they also make the shells for the Roto Concept Shower I had no problem trusting that they understood what I was wanting to use the product for ... it was a very enlightening experience. In the end I got two unique containers made for £55 each including delivery directly from them. Obviously it was a lot cheaper because they already had the moulds so it was just a case of paying for the plastic.

    But that's what I would be looking to do if I needed a rigid plastic bowl of that size ... find a plastic moulding company (most of them make to order) that has a suitable mould (and it's not exactly an uncommon shape) and just get one made to your spec. ... it was far easier than I ever expected and you might get a surprise at how cheap it could be ...
    Lol I would use a £6 paddling pool if it did the job I needed it for. Filling up a 1700 gallon £80 swimming pool at the moment.. far better option than the equivalent £1000+ aquosis…

    The Denby 1m bowls were made as a result of specific requests from Koikeepers that wanted a large bowl.

    Just spied this; https://www.ponds4fish.co.uk/shop/qu...SABEgL0DfD_BwE, it may fulfil criteria with some mods (I hate the lip) if it were in blue...

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  30. #57
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Lol I would use a £6 paddling pool if it did the job I needed it for. Filling up a 1700 gallon £80 swimming pool at the moment.. far better option than the equivalent £1000+ aquosis…

    The Denby 1m bowls were made as a result of specific requests from Koikeepers that wanted a large bowl.

    Just spied this; https://www.ponds4fish.co.uk/shop/qu...SABEgL0DfD_BwE, it may fulfil criteria with some mods (I hate the lip) if it were in blue...
    It's a shame you couldn't find out where they were made ... it's made from HDPE and probably in the UK ... all the plastic moulding companies offer the same variety of colours and if you could find out who's got the moulds I'll bet it would be really easy to get a blue one.

    HDPE is really easy to cut accurately with a fine tooth jigsaw or shape with a heat gun so the lip is easy to deal with/modify if you want.

    That's frustrating .... somewhere in the UK the mould that made that is sitting with some blue polyethylene not far away from it .... I bet they've only got black one's in as they are trying to sell them mainly as pond liners.

    You know I would try phoning them and asking if they have any blue one's ... the person that answers might be kind enough to tell you who makes them ...

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  32. #58
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Might be worth a call here too ... I see they have a selection of large bowl shaped moulds and also make them in blue: 2500 Litre Water Holding Tank

    Always worth an ask ...

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  34. #59
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Just spied this; https://www.ponds4fish.co.uk/shop/qu...SABEgL0DfD_BwE, it may fulfil criteria with some mods (I hate the lip) if it were in blue...
    Ponds4fish are not that good as I know someone that got one of the bigger ponds off them and it had a hole in the bottom and when they contacted them they were told they could just use a hot knife to melt the plastic back over the hole What on a brand new pond I don't think so!!! They did replace it for them in the end and their delivery driver was very abusive using offensive language apparently when they dropped off the replacement. So best avoided I would say.

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  36. #60
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Hi,

    Think it is rather apples and pears with bowl v paddling pool.

    Ive seen paddling pools used in mud pond harvests where they are used as a quick storage place for the fish that have been gathered by in the seine net, but the koi are lifted into these. In a bowling situation you want your receptical to have a fairly neutral buoyance so the fish can be pan netted into it, I suspect that a paddling pool would be both cumbersome and have rather too much buoyancy?

    Hassle wise blowing up, cleaning, drying off and packing up is a pain.

    All I was looking for were any similar cheaper plastic bowls, the nearest "match"are the excellent Denby 1m fibreglass bowls., the only disadvantage they have over the plastic ones are that they are somewhat less buoyant and need the lip of the bowl to have some additional protection added.
    I have the Derby 1m one, but I don't float it in the pond for the reasons you said. I've taken to koi-socking them straight out of my mahoosive Garry Bourne pan net and lifting into the denby. However it's a 2 man job and my OH is not that keen. We tend to get quite wet when it's one of the big girls

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