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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Question Washing Cat Litter For Biocenosis Baskets - When Will It End?!

    Morning everyone,

    I'm making up some Biocenosis Baskets to sit in my pond to support my ProfiClear in the hope of curbing high Nitrites and Nitrates from NPS whilst my new filter matures. The Sanicat Pink cat litter arrived yesterday (BTW - good price from VetShop at £10 / 30L at the mo).

    Keen to crack on with the rinsing pending the rest of the 'ingredients' turning up today, I started washing the litter last night... and washed... and washed .... and washed . Shocked at the never ending rust coloured dust coming out, I left it to soak overnight, hoping that may help. Nope!

    I've even tried taking a small handful and rinsing that very thoroughly with a sieve under a fast running hot tap for ages. Then put it into a bowel with water, and bingo - water pink again

    So to anyone who has used the Sanicat Pink (natural, unscented) litter for the their Biocenosis Baskets, can you please offer any insight into how long it took before the litter stopped giving off colour and was safe to put into your pond / Anoxic filter and do you have any tips on how I can get to this stage quicker and using less water?! Does boiling water help to get the colour out the clay particles for example, or do you have to just leave it soaking for X number of days, then rinse and use? Any tips gratefully received!


    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Mike Bass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Morning everyone,

    I'm making up some Biocenosis Baskets to sit in my pond to support my ProfiClear in the hope of curbing high Nitrites and Nitrates from NPS whilst my new filter matures. The Sanicat Pink cat litter arrived yesterday (BTW - good price from VetShop at £10 / 30L at the mo).

    Keen to crack on with the rinsing pending the rest of the 'ingredients' turning up today, I started washing the litter last night... and washed... and washed .... and washed . Shocked at the never ending rust coloured dust coming out, I left it to soak overnight, hoping that may help. Nope!

    I've even tried taking a small handful and rinsing that very thoroughly with a sieve under a fast running hot tap for ages. Then put it into a bowel with water, and bingo - water pink again

    So to anyone who has used the Sanicat Pink (natural, unscented) litter for the their Biocenosis Baskets, can you please offer any insight into how long it took before the litter stopped giving off colour and was safe to put into your pond / Anoxic filter and do you have any tips on how I can get to this stage quicker and using less water?! Does boiling water help to get the colour out the clay particles for example, or do you have to just leave it soaking for X number of days, then rinse and use? Any tips gratefully received!

    I can’t comment on the pink stuff as I only use Catsan which cleans with a milky white residue which is clear after 2 or 3 rinses. Only then do I put the core of clay in the middle using a pipe or tube to create the space or empty column in the middle to which I then pack around the cleaned Catsan, mesh on the top....job done
    p.s. I take the tube out leaving a core of Manado clay
    Last edited by Mike Bass; 12-08-2020 at 10:01 AM.
    1kGal BD/Skim RDF/UV/k1 2.3kGal 2windows 2airBD/skim Sieve/Eazypod RDFcombi+bakki 3xVP/UV,ASHP

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bass View Post
    I can’t comment on the pink stuff as I only use Catsan which cleans with a milky white residue which is clear after 2 or 3 rinses. Only then do I put the core of clay in the middle using a pipe or tube to create the space or empty column in the middle to which I then pack around the cleaned Catsan, mesh on the top....job done
    p.s. I take the tube out leaving a core of Manado clay
    Thanks for the quick reply Mike. Wish I'd known about the Catsan! Are you able to provide a link to exactly which one you've used that only needs a couple of rinses please? Was there any reason you chose this litter (ie... you already knew how bad the Sanicat was to get clear ?!! )

    I've gone with the JBL Aquabasis plus for the centre which I hope will be fine as it's the one shown on Manky's site. All this stuff has gone up recently, but I found it for a reasonable price on Swell (£8.49 for 2.5L - I'm only making 6 baskets).

    Has anyone used the Sanicat Pink and manged to get it to run clear? If not, I can see a donation to the cat sanctuary coming up (my kitties won't use it - they're fussy like that, plus I don't want pink paws all around the house!).
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Mike Bass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply Mike. Wish I'd known about the Catsan! Are you able to provide a link to exactly which one you've used that only needs a couple of rinses please? Was there any reason you chose this litter (ie... you already knew how bad the Sanicat was to get clear ?!! )

    I've gone with the JBL Aquabasis plus for the centre which I hope will be fine as it's the one shown on Manky's site. All this stuff has gone up recently, but I found it for a reasonable price on Swell (£8.49 for 2.5L - I'm only making 6 baskets).

    Has anyone used the Sanicat Pink and manged to get it to run clear? If not, I can see a donation to the cat sanctuary coming up (my kitties won't use it - they're fussy like that, plus I don't want pink paws all around the house!).
    I used Catsan because Costco sell them in 20ltr bags also available from Amazon
    699C92BB-2B1B-4CC1-9965-EA2639E0ED50.jpg85AEBBC7-37DF-49F1-AAB8-E01B8373E04C.jpg
    1kGal BD/Skim RDF/UV/k1 2.3kGal 2windows 2airBD/skim Sieve/Eazypod RDFcombi+bakki 3xVP/UV,ASHP

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  8. #5
    Wendy, if you read my article on anoxic filtration, you will see that it's primarily intended as a stand alone system where you can expect near zero ammonia and nitrite and very low or even near zero nitrate too.

    This is because it works in a completely different way to conventional (nitrogen cycle) biofiltration and destroys ammonia directly without producing any nitrite or nitrate. In that situation, it will also be able to mop up any nitrate produced by nitrifying bugs elsewhere in the pond such as on the walls and floors.

    The article highlights the fact that, if you put anoxic filtration in competition with the high nitrate output of a conventional biofilter, it will do it's best to remove the nitrate produced but will always be struggling to keep up and it won't be able to achieve its full potential.
    Anoxic Filtration

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Wendy, if you read my article on anoxic filtration, you will see that it's primarily intended as a stand alone system where you can expect near zero ammonia and nitrite and very low or even near zero nitrate too.

    This is because it works in a completely different way to conventional (nitrogen cycle) biofiltration and destroys ammonia directly without producing any nitrite or nitrate. In that situation, it will also be able to mop up any nitrate produced by nitrifying bugs elsewhere in the pond such as on the walls and floors.

    The article highlights the fact that, if you put anoxic filtration in competition with the high nitrate output of a conventional biofilter, it will do it's best to remove the nitrate produced but will always be struggling to keep up and it won't be able to achieve its full potential.
    Anoxic Filtration
    Hi Syd - thanks for joining in. I have indeed read your guide .

    Unfortunately, the way my pond was built in 2017 (before I know what I do now!), there is no way for me to include either a Bakki shower or river, nor a separate Anoxic or veg bed. I have tried introducing plants to my pond with all manner of protective netting around them, but my Koi just destroy them so I gave up trying. I've also used floating baskets of cress, but I can never include enough to really get the job done, plus I don't like things floating on the surface for the Koi to bash their heads or break their dorsal rays on (speaking from experience)! This is the first time I have had to deal with NPS in a pond. I know eventually the new ProfiClear will mature as my Nexus did, and I have slightly more 'theoretical' g/day processing ability than previously with 100L of K1, (I now have 40L HelX13 + 10L K1 + 10L Oase PondPads providing 537 g/day which is way more than I will ever feed my 9 koi), BUT I have 20-40ppm Nitrates in my mains water, so I have a constant battle.

    My Ammonia is currently zero, but Nitrites have been bouncing between 0.25 and 0.5 for weeks regardless of how much water I change with no or barely any feeding (which is not at all good for my fish at these temps, bearing in mind they've barely fed properly all year thanks to resistant flukes then costia and endless treatments to finally rid them). None of the fish were showing signs of stress, but when my Sanke and Showa presented with what I am now certain is Hikkui at the weekend, I realised that clearly they are, and I needed to do something. On the 7th July I salted to 0.3% to buffer against NPS, but it killed all the new growth in the pond and despite having the fine mesh filters in my drum, I could not get the brown water to clear from the dead organics, which were coating all the pond surfaces and stopping any new growth. On the 24th July, I eventually had to isolate the filter, move the fish back to the Intex for 12 hours, strip down the pond, and refill, so I'm loath to salt again as I have now finally gotten the green to grow back, which is what the fish are mostly surviving on.

    I guess my decision to add Anoxic can be seen as desperation I had even followed your fishless cycling protocol for my new media to give it all a jump start before the fish were put back into the pond on the 24th June, but sadly that has not really accelerated things as I had hoped, and then the salt disaster set the pond itself back again (filter media was kept alive with aeration in the Profi).

    I know Biocenosis takes time to mature, but in the absence of any other ideas, I hoped having that as a support to my ProfiClear may just help me if NPS goes on longer, plus it gives me a bit of a backup if my biofilter goes down with mechanical failure for any length of time. I would also be able to put the mature Biocenosis baskets into my Intex pool if needing to quarantine a fish or remove them all from the pond again for some reason, so I took the decision to make 6 baskets to sit on the shelf in my pond - hence my discovery at just how much water and time I'm going to have to use to get the damned Sanicat clean!!!

    My goal is to get my Nitrates to <50 (as per your guide), once I'm able to feed with NH3 and NO2 consistently registering zero on my drop tests, as currently NO3 is between 80 and 100.

    I was a bit worried that adding Biocenosis may actually hinder the maturation of my filter if it was taking ammonia from the water before it fed the bacteria in the media, so again - would value your advice on that.

    As I said - desperation, and not having any other ideas what I can do, as hubs is rapidly loosing his sense of humour over the volume of water I've been using on the Koi since the flukes reared their heads again in April. It has not been a good year
    Last edited by Koiz; 12-08-2020 at 12:35 PM.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  11. #7
    There's a lot of stuff in your posts that would make it easy to get sidetracked so let's try to keep this as simple as possible (so as not to confuse my poor addled brain )

    Firstly, I'll answer a point you raised; it's a myth that the levels of ammonia (and nitrite) have to be high in order to trigger the formation of a mature colony of nitrifying bugs (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter). These bugs are good at scavenging low levels of ammonia and nitrite so the ammonia taken by the anoxic baskets won't affect how quickly your biological media matures.

    Let's start from the basics. Can you answer some questions?

    What are the current values of the parameters that you've tested and the pond temperature?

    What water treatments or medications have you added in the past couple of months?

    Are you using any media that was previously matured?

    When you fishless cycled the media did you regularly add ammonia and did the levels of ammonia and the resulting nitrite rapidly reduce to near zero and be replaced by nitrate?

    I'm busy today so I may not be able to get back to this thread until much later so anyone else, feel free to add comments.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Kois,

    As per the other Anoxic thread, save yourself hours of hassle cleaning out cat litter and get this which literally needs nothing more than a squirt with the hose:

    https://www.kaizenbonsai.com/moler-m...-growing-media

    Sounds expensive at first glance but works out cheaper than cat litter as you're not throwing 50%+ of it away.

    I got 3 meduim sized baskets per 14 litre bag, although some people got just under 3 baskets so bear that in mind.

    The other thread, which Manky Sanke contributed to, should also answer some of your questions raised on here, but ultimately Anoxic is a standalone bio filtration system to completely replace "traditional" bio systems, although to some degree it will compliment existing mature systems.

    Anoxic filtration isn't an easy "fast-fix" answer to ongoing NPS though.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 12-08-2020 at 05:15 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    There's a lot of stuff in your posts that would make it easy to get sidetracked so let's try to keep this as simple as possible (so as not to confuse my poor addled brain )
    Yes - sadly there's been a lot of stuff going on with my pond - so I empathise with addled brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Firstly, I'll answer a point you raised; it's a myth that the levels of ammonia (and nitrite) have to be high in order to trigger the formation of a mature colony of nitrifying bugs (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter). These bugs are good at scavenging low levels of ammonia and nitrite so the ammonia taken by the anoxic baskets won't affect how quickly your biological media matures.
    That's very helpful to know. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    What are the current values of the parameters that you've tested and the pond temperature?
    Params - 12.08.20.JPG API Test - 12.08.20.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    What water treatments or medications have you added in the past couple of months?
    Since my pond was restarted and fish returned on the 24th June, I have added Kusuri dechlorinator for water changes, AquaSource Filter Gel and Oase Biokick Premium for filter boost, AquaSource Vitalize to support fish through NPS and frequent water changes, and one 380g dose of AquaSource Resolve on 31st July to nip blanket weed in the bud (which it has done). I have added no medications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Are you using any media that was previously matured?
    No. It was all nuked with PP due to recurrent Flukes then Costia. Fish were moved out the pond into an Intex, and Pond was sanitised. Whilst empty, I changed the filtration system to reduce pipework and eliminate any areas where crud could build up. So it was all brand new media (HelX13) plus a little bit of old K1, then I added 10L Oase PondPads after PPing and fishless cycling them on the 15th and 20th July.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    When you fishless cycled the media did you regularly add ammonia and did the levels of ammonia and the resulting nitrite rapidly reduce to near zero and be replaced by nitrate?
    Yes I did add ammonia and achieve the reduction to Nitrite and Nitrate for both the HelX and PondPads, but I achieved only 0.25 Nitrite on the HelX before the fish went back in. I didn't want to delay them any longer as they'd been in the Intex for almost 8 weeks. All the media is boiling well and 'looks' to be maturing:
    Boiling Media - 12.08.20.jpg Maturing Media - 12.08.20.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    I'm busy today so I may not be able to get back to this thread until much later so anyone else, feel free to add comments.
    Would be extremely grateful for your advice as I don't know if I should keep changing the water and if so, how best (drain and refill or trickle?) as it doesn't seem to make any difference to the readings, and I'm concerned that the persistent Nitrite is taking a silent toll on my fish, and that this may have triggered the problems with the heads of the Sanke and Showa that appeared within 24 hours of each other on Friday and Saturday just gone:
    Showa & Sanke Head Blisters.JPG
    Last edited by Koiz; 12-08-2020 at 08:40 PM.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Sounds expensive at first glance but works out cheaper than cat litter as you're not throwing 50%+ of it away.
    Thanks for your input RS Can you please clarify what you mean by throwing 50% of it away? Why would I be throwing any litter away?

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I got 3 meduim sized baskets per 14 litre bag, although some people got just under 3 baskets so bear that in mind.
    By medium do you mean 30x30x20cm baskets as per Manky's guide?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Thanks for your input RS Can you please clarify what you mean by throwing 50% of it away? Why would I be throwing any litter away?


    By medium do you mean 30x30x20cm baskets as per Manky's guide?

    50% as in once you've sieved it and washed it you lose half of it. When I washed the Sanicat litter I didn't do it over a drain, but by flowing pond water at pressure over the litter and into a smaller empty tank. (so I could top up main pond with fresh water rather than wasting fresh water on cleaning the litter). Once I drained the tank (2.4m x 0.6m) there was a good 6" depth of dust and fine particles which equated to over 50% of the litter I started with. In fact due to the water it had now absorbed actually refilled every cat litter bag I'd used with the waste.

    Yes, medium baskets as in 30x30x20cm, although realistically because they taper in towards the bottom they are more like 28x28x19cm.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 12-08-2020 at 09:07 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I don't think your parameters look too bad Kois, definitely nothing to panic about.

    Whilst every pond is different I can tell you that I struggled with Nitrite for 9 Months after building my pond, with nitrite commonly reading 1.5mg/l and often going over 2mg/l.

    Other than slow growth and a bit of lethargy the Koi coped surprisingly well. No flashing and no visible indications of sickness.

    For a period of time I was struggling to keep nitrite below 2 mg/l. A 40% water change which would bring it down to around 1.2mg/l, then 24 hours later it would be back to 2mg/l as if there was a magnet at that level. I salted the pond to 0.1% and whilst I worried a lot, nothing bad happened and the Koi were swimming around and eating fine.

    My pH was 8.2 throughout that 9 Months.

    Pond was built in April, then suddenly one day in late November / Early December the nitrite reading dropped overnight from over 1mg/l to 0.25 mg/l. Tested again the next morning and it was zero. The feeling and relief was unreal!

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Thanks RS for explaining. I've only opened one bag of sanicat so far, and whilst it's really dusty, there doesn't seem to be much grit that would be waste but maybe I'll discover that eventually.

    With the exception of the small amount I took out to experiment washing, the rest is in my koi bowl with the trickle out from the pond flowing into it so, like you, I'm trying to re-use my 'waste' water to clean it before it goes onto the grass.

    What an absolute pain it is. I've now found the posts in your thread where you talk about how awful Sanicat is to clean. Unfortunately, I'd not read that far into the thread (it was a big one!), but had seen enough feedback on line to think Sanicat was the best choice. I know better now!

    Did you eventually succeed in getting the water to run clear with the Sanicat though? If I can clean it with the waste water then I may persevere, but with all the issues I'm dealing with, I absolutely can't risk putting it in the pond if it's gong to pollute the water.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I don't think your parameters look too bad Kois, definitely nothing to panic about.

    Whilst every pond is different I can tell you that I struggled with Nitrite for 9 Months after building my pond, with nitrite commonly reading 1.5mg/l and often going over 2mg/l.

    Other than slow growth and a bit of lethargy the Koi coped surprisingly well. No flashing and no visible indications of sickness.

    For a period of time I was struggling to keep nitrite below 2 mg/l. A 40% water change which would bring it down to around 1.2mg/l, then 24 hours later it would be back to 2mg/l as if there was a magnet at that level. I salted the pond to 0.1% and whilst I worried a lot, nothing bad happened and the Koi were swimming around and eating fine.

    My pH was 8.2 throughout that 9 Months.

    Pond was built in April, then suddenly one day in late November / Early December the nitrite reading dropped overnight from over 1mg/l to 0.25 mg/l. Tested again the next morning and it was zero. The feeling and relief was unreal!
    Oh wow! Thank you so much for sharing your experience. That's really made me wonder if I am worrying unnecessarily. I too am finding that the water changes make no difference. Perhaps to the Nitrate a tad but it bounces straight up again.

    I think what's worrying me most is the sudden problems with the Hikkui, and that I'm barely feeding at a time when Koi are most hungry. The poor things have had a fraction of the food they would have eaten this year due to all the parasite probs.

    I think it would be really helpful to have a guide on paramaters when dealing specifically with NPS so we can better understand when to panic! In particular, how long can fish be exposed to higher levels of NH3 and NO2 before it becomes critical. Perhaps there are just too many variables (temp, PH, GH, KH plus age, breed and initial health of each koi) to draw up guidelines Washing Cat Litter For Biocenosis Baskets - When Will It End?!

    I just wish it wasn't all so stressful! I'd just about gotten over the fear of seeing my koi start flashing again after putting them back in the pond. Paranoia reigns supreme! Washing Cat Litter For Biocenosis Baskets - When Will It End?!

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    Last edited by Koiz; 12-08-2020 at 11:42 PM.
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    At your pH, ammonia is the one to watch closely. You really want to keep it below the levels on the chart on Manky's website and if you succeed in that then you've little to worry about. At current temps you want to try and keep it below around 0.2.

    I wouldn't worry too much about Nitrates either, that is something you can deal with later. I have run nitrate levels at 80 mg/l for long periods in the past without any obvious long term health issues from the fish (they were Goldfish, but I have had the Koi pond at 80 mg/l briefly).

    As for Nitrites, I've no clue how toxic it is at 8.2 pH in current temps, and I'd have expected levels over 1 mg/l to be really damaging, but with plenty of air going in my Koi coped fine for many Months and with 0.1% salt they coped with 2 mg/l quite well too. It did impact growth and overall vitality somewhat but as you can see in this video where nitrites are near on 1.5 mg/l and had been for some weeks the Koi are clearly not in any major trouble (Can't remember if I'd added salt at this point):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx1f-AO8wz4

    Last edited by RS2OOO; 12-08-2020 at 11:30 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    ...as you can see in this video where nitrites are near on 1.5 mg/l and had been for some weeks the Koi are clearly not in any major trouble (Can't remember if I'd added salt at this point):
    Oh how lovely Particularly like your Hi Utsuri. My dream was to have one of those, a Ki Utsuri and a Tancho Kujaku to complete my collection. Not sure I'll ever achieve that now ... too scared to add any new fish! I've got a nice vid of mine eating water melon from the other day. If I can figure out how to get it onto YouTube I'll share it

    Thanks for your insight on my params. It really has helped put my mind at ease. I've got an 80 LPM air pump running 3 air discs in the pond, and the O2 levels were at 10 this afternoon, so I'm hoping that's all fine. Had to turn the Waterblade off tonight though as have just noticed one of my rubber connectors is leaking from the skimmer. Typical! Can't risk that suddenly giving out during the night. Will have to get that replaced tomorrow.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Kois,

    As per the other Anoxic thread, save yourself hours of hassle cleaning out cat litter and get this which literally needs nothing more than a squirt with the hose:

    https://www.kaizenbonsai.com/moler-m...-growing-media

    Sounds expensive at first glance but works out cheaper than cat litter as you're not throwing 50%+ of it away.

    I got 3 meduim sized baskets per 14 litre bag, although some people got just under 3 baskets so bear that in mind.

    The other thread, which Manky Sanke contributed to, should also answer some of your questions raised on here, but ultimately Anoxic is a standalone bio filtration system to completely replace "traditional" bio systems, although to some degree it will compliment existing mature systems.

    Anoxic filtration isn't an easy "fast-fix" answer to ongoing NPS though.

    RS2000,

    Moler and the Sanicat (used to be Sophisticat) pink cat litter is exactly the same stuff (but maybe dug out of a different hole in the ground) and it goes by a number of names in the growing industry, Moler, Terramol, Danish Pink, Biosorb, Ultrazorb and many more. It is also used in the automotive industry to mop up oil spills (particularly in the USA). I use it for my my bonsai (so do all my bonsai friends) and buy it from Pets at Home although it is getting more expensive there. Yes you can wash it to death as it is only the microscopic bones of dead (microscopic) animals, most of it you can crush between your fingers, so my advice is - don't, just flush it through. If you can't crush it between your fingers when it is damp then it could be a stone! Bonsai folk are partial to stones as well. Think about this - Danish Pink/Moler/Terramol is a natural product that companies are starting to add to bags of compost (to reduce the peat content) so would it do my koi any harm even if they eat some or injest some suspended in the water, probably not, and my koiboys were keen enough to bury their noses in it on my first basket ititeration. Beating it to death is not something that is happening to the substrate when it sits inside a basket in my pond.

    If you like paying the "bonsai tax" for something that is sold much cheaper in a superstore then fine, don't let me stop you, but Graham at Kaizen won't sell you 30 litres for a tenner and is happy for the income. The Sophisticat (less expensive) offering is also graded in size so most granules tend to be large enough not to fall through the holes in pond baskets, so it goes even further.

    Kenny

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  31. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Thanks RS for explaining. I've only opened one bag of sanicat so far, and whilst it's really dusty, there doesn't seem to be much grit that would be waste but maybe I'll discover that eventually.

    With the exception of the small amount I took out to experiment washing, the rest is in my koi bowl with the trickle out from the pond flowing into it so, like you, I'm trying to re-use my 'waste' water to clean it before it goes onto the grass.

    What an absolute pain it is. I've now found the posts in your thread where you talk about how awful Sanicat is to clean. Unfortunately, I'd not read that far into the thread (it was a big one!), but had seen enough feedback on line to think Sanicat was the best choice. I know better now!

    Did you eventually succeed in getting the water to run clear with the Sanicat though? If I can clean it with the waste water then I may persevere, but with all the issues I'm dealing with, I absolutely can't risk putting it in the pond if it's gong to pollute the water.

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
    Koiz,

    You are overthinking this. I simply skoosh over the Sanicat (Sophisticat) with a hose, let it drain and add it to the basket. There should be no real water flow around your baskets so no more is going to come out and if it does is it going to do your koi any harm - no. The Sanicat pink cat litter is a natural product dug out of the ground, if you keep sieving it, yes it will disappear - so don't. If you ever get to the point where you think you have got rid of all the residue then you are left with stones. Even after three years in my pond when I lift my baskets pink stuff flows out of the bottom. Do I worry about it - no! Funnily enough we are quite happy to fling the likes of Kusuri Klay into our ponds.

    Kenny

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Kenny View Post
    RS2000,

    Moler and the Sanicat (used to be Sophisticat) pink cat litter is exactly the same stuff (but maybe dug out of a different hole in the ground) and it goes by a number of names in the growing industry, Moler, Terramol, Danish Pink, Biosorb, Ultrazorb and many more. It is also used in the automotive industry to mop up oil spills (particularly in the USA). I use it for my my bonsai (so do all my bonsai friends) and buy it from Pets at Home although it is getting more expensive there. Yes you can wash it to death as it is only the microscopic bones of dead (microscopic) animals, most of it you can crush between your fingers, so my advice is - don't, just flush it through. If you can't crush it between your fingers when it is damp then it could be a stone! Bonsai folk are partial to stones as well. Think about this - Danish Pink/Moler/Terramol is a natural product that companies are starting to add to bags of compost (to reduce the peat content) so would it do my koi any harm even if they eat some or injest some suspended in the water, probably not, and my koiboys were keen enough to bury their noses in it on my first basket ititeration. Beating it to death is not something that is happening to the substrate when it sits inside a basket in my pond.

    If you like paying the "bonsai tax" for something that is sold much cheaper in a superstore then fine, don't let me stop you, but Graham at Kaizen won't sell you 30 litres for a tenner and is happy for the income. The Sophisticat (less expensive) offering is also graded in size so most granules tend to be large enough not to fall through the holes in pond baskets, so it goes even further.

    Kenny
    Sorry Kenny, I should have made clear, the cat litter I was comparing against was not pink Danish / moler clay, but sepiolite. The amount of dust and waste was vast.

    I've not tried moler cat litter but after my previous experience with cat litter I was happy to pay the bonsai tax for graded stuff and in comparison it was worlds apart, no dust and a quick rinse and it was in the pond.

    Maybe Moler cat litter isn't as difficult to clean as sepiolite litter.



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    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Sorry Kenny, I should have made clear, the cat litter I was comparing against was not pink Danish / moler clay, but sepiolite. The amount of dust and waste was vast.

    I've not tried moler cat litter but after my previous experience with cat litter I was happy to pay the bonsai tax for graded stuff and in comparison it was worlds apart, no dust and a quick rinse and it was in the pond.

    Maybe Moler cat litter isn't as difficult to clean as sepiolite litter.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    RS2000,

    Wow Sepiolite! Stick that in your pipe and smoke it then! Basically a soft chalk like substance I think, used to make Meerschaum pipes. I once carved one. but not very well.

    I have used Sanicat (pink) for years in bonsai. I give it a rinse for a minute under a hose. If you grind it or continually sieve it then it will continually wear away since it is not usually very hard, but then it doesn't have to be. Many bonsai substrates are not hard, like Akadama or Kanuma but they just sit quietly in a pot or in the case of our koi ponds a basket.

    Now there is a thought Kanuma is used to grow the likes of Azalea or Rhododendron and is on the acid side. If you added that to baskets in the pond would it help to keep the PH level less than 7.

    Another thought - there seems to be a number of people out there that think cat litter is cat liitter and all the same. It isn't, so don't go willy nilly introducing it into your ponds.

    Final thought - Catsan cat litter has a high percentage content of Montmorillonite which is the main component in Kusuri Klay. Should I buy a 30 litre bag for a tenner and throw it in a bit at a time?

    Final thought +1 - Don't open another bottle of wine!

    Kenny
    Last edited by Handy Kenny; 15-08-2020 at 01:46 AM.

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