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  1. #81
    BCC there are many myths that have been put into the public domain by people who don't understand how anoxic filtration works. Let me dispel a few for you:

    The "breeding ground for bugs" argument is something that is common but, looking at it logically, for any creature, including bugs, to have a "breeding ground" or a place where they can breed and multiply, there must be a source of food or they couldn't survive, let alone successfully breed. Since there is no flow of water through a basket, silt and other organic debris cannot enter it and provide a nutrient supply. Only chemicals such as ammonia can enter by electrostatic attraction or chemical diffusion and these cannot sustain any organism that could parasitise a fish.

    Another mistaken idea is about nitrate. The baskets will effectively destroy the ammonia molecule without turning it into nitrite or nitrate. They also have the capacity to draw in nitrate produced by nitrifying bugs (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter) that are elsewhere in the pond such as the walls and floor etc. which is why they can produce near zero ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. However, contrary to the expectations of those who put a few baskets into a pond that already has conventional (nitrifying) biofilters, and expect a huge nitrate reduction, they cannot cope with the nitrate production of those conventional biofilters which swamp them with more nitrate than they can realistically be expected to remove.

    When a biocenosis basket is fully matured it will likely have some DOC reducing bugs in the outer zones (A & B) which will effectively remove the DOC from sloughed off mucus etc. However, the baskets are not intended to be complete DOC reducers for the amount of DOC that is caused by overfeeding or feeding food that can't be fully digested in the limited time that it is in the gut before it's expelled.


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  3. #82
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    I'm pretty pleased with how quickly my Nitrates have dropped since my Nitrite zeroed after NPS. Given I'm plant free with no bakki, I'm rather hopeful this is the result of my in-pond baskets. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to wait till the Nitrate drops no further, remove the baskets and see what happens. Maybe that'll be an experiment for next year Washing Cat Litter For Biocenosis Baskets - When Will It End?!

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  5. #83
    Thanks Syd.
    I took all that on board when I embarked on my journey and am completely satisfied that they do what they say on the tin. My water parameters are stable and satisfactory.
    Although water does not penetrate the basket there are still nooks and crannies within the outermost surface, around the pebbles on top and on the baskets themselves which “could” be where mulm/detritus could build up. Also around the separating pipework.
    For example, the baskets with pebbles on top were quite fluffy with settled mulm however, I had/have a few baskets without any coverings at all and they’re as clean as a whistle. I haven’t got around to inspecting ones with tights over the top but will do over the weekend.
    I also had my baskets quite close together and maybe the flow round/between these may not have been as good as it could have been.
    I will space out the remaining 18 baskets for a couple of weeks and monitor for any sludge build up.
    I have also been changing water (yes, via a dechlorintor). Not 10% a week but certainly around 5% as I lose a bit regularly as my pond water level fluctuates as my drum levels do. I tend to keep on top of this with a trickle every few days.
    Trust me, i desperately want/wanted this to work out but I’m at a loss to explain why these issues just don’t go away.
    I’d be interested to know from those who have suffered similar issues this year which kind of filtration people have.
    I see (Smartin?) has an Evolve with Jap mat, ie, a static media and he’s had issues as has Ian Miles.
    Is there anyone suffering who JUST has a moving bed?
    Would a shower running a relatively slow flow (less than 15k l/hr) be able to flush any detritus through the media or do people who run say a flowfriend at a massive rate have no issues?
    I have a pergola, that equates to lots of pigeons perching/crapping in the pond, might this be a factor? Would there be any benefit covering this?
    Anyone got any thoughts they want to share?
    I don’t want to get into a big discussion whether anoxic “works” or not, I’m 100% it does, I’m interested more in the prevention of parasites/biological issues that may be avoided by other means. It might be impossible to achieve but it might be possible to mitigate ones exposure perhaps?

    The reason I mentioned a shower is that I also cleaned this out and was quite surprised with the amount of junk that came out of that.
    I’m running my pump 20k around 80%.
    It looks pretty feeble at first glance but when you see it without any media in, 15k of water through a chamber 600x300 is A LOT.

    I’ve put sponges over the top of it now to see what I catch.

    Oddly, this last couple of weeks with the first chamber empty of baskets and replaced with K1, my fish have been a lot more active despite the drop in temperature. I will scrape a couple at the weekend and see if there are any critters left as well.


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  7. #84
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    I added anoxic to help primarily with Nitrates which are now falling nicely (from >80 to 35).

    I'm quite concerned to hear that your baskets started to fail @RS2OOO. Since washing the outer layer of mulm off, have you noticed them working again or is it to early to tell?

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    Hi Koiz,

    Only cleaned out the Anoxic pond and rinsed the baskets 3 days ago so it's too early to say if they've kicked back in.

    Didn't check parameters today but can tell by the koi behaviour that I currently have an Ammonia reading.

    Considering its now a mature pond the sudden ammonia, nitrite and elevated nitrate readings indicate to me the anoxic filter must at the very least have had a sudden reduction in processing power and the normal cycle is trying to take up the slack.



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  9. #85
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Thanks for your reply @RS2OOO. Do please keep us posted on how this pans out. I'm very interested.

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  11. #86
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Hi @bigcarpchaser. All my parasite issues started last year before I changed my filter and added Anoxic. I have a fully netted, raised pond. The only visitors are one pigeon that drinks from the water blade when it's on. No frogs, newts, ect. The outbreak followed me adding some floating pond plants (to help Nitrates) and a few weeks later two baby koi - all from Maidenhead Aquatics. Both those koi are now dead. It started with Trichodina, then Prazi resistant skin flukes and finally Chilodenella and Costia. So my parasite situation def had nothing to do with Anoxic. I believe it was the plants and / or fish I added. Washing Cat Litter For Biocenosis Baskets - When Will It End?!

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  13. #87
    Thanks Koiz.
    I’m not suggesting in any way that anoxic is the CAUSE of any issues, I’m attempting to establish whether it’s a contributing factor in the difficulties people are facing getting shot of them that’s all.


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  15. #88
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Thanks Koiz.
    I’m not suggesting in any way that anoxic is the CAUSE of any issues, I’m attempting to establish whether it’s a contributing factor in the difficulties people are facing getting shot of them that’s all.


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    I'm sorry, I didn't word my post well in response. Anoxic was not added to my pond until after all parasites had been cleared in quarantine, the pond nuked with PP, stripped and refilled, a new filter installed and the fish returned. So in my case, resistance or repeat of parasites was not linked to Anoxic Washing Cat Litter For Biocenosis Baskets - When Will It End?!

    To be honest, if they appear again then the only conclusion I can draw is that they come in via the water supply. This could explain how people with indoor ponds that have not had any new additions for years get outbreaks. Unless these stories are old wives tales! I don't personally know anyone with such a pond, I've only heard the accounts second hand.

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    Last edited by Koiz; 29-09-2020 at 10:20 PM.
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  17. #89
    From tap water?
    Unlikely given all the junk in it to make it safe for us to drink lol.
    Chap on YouTube, Adam Julyan has an indoor pond and has had parasites, it does happen.
    They obviously come from somewhere, minimising that’s risk is obviously important but getting rid of the things is another matter. I don’t buy the “super fluke” theory.
    I do think the manufacturers of treatments lean on the side of extreme caution with dosage so they don’t leave themselves open to litigation.
    It doesn’t take a genius to work out that every pond is different so they would probably work to the lowest datum and expect muggins here to fork out for some further meds after the first (and second......and....) don’t work.
    Back in the day when people used to spray water in ponds straight from the tap there didn’t appear to be so many issues. Or did there?
    Come to think of it, I don’t recall any issues when I was using ST to dechlorinate hmmmm.


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  18. #90
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    From tap water?
    Unlikely given all the junk in it to make it safe for us to drink lol.
    Chap on YouTube, Adam Julyan has an indoor pond and has had parasites, it does happen.
    They obviously come from somewhere, minimising that’s risk is obviously important but getting rid of the things is another matter. I don’t buy the “super fluke” theory.
    I do think the manufacturers of treatments lean on the side of extreme caution with dosage so they don’t leave themselves open to litigation.
    It doesn’t take a genius to work out that every pond is different so they would probably work to the lowest datum and expect muggins here to fork out for some further meds after the first (and second......and....) don’t work.
    Back in the day when people used to spray water in ponds straight from the tap there didn’t appear to be so many issues. Or did there?
    Come to think of it, I don’t recall any issues when I was using ST to dechlorinate hmmmm.

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    There are more than one sub-species of fluke and other parasites for example. People don't see the spiders, insects, the frogs, the rodents that use the pond and other ponds in addition to the more visible birds etc.

    Balance - typically people have these organisms in their ponds but they're kept in balance. Once out of balance they multiply at the detriment of the fish.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

  19. #91
    Having scraped today one of the poorly ones is absolutely infested in the things. 4 treatments and it’s worse than ever.
    At the point of caving in and giving up to be honest, the stress and the aggro, not to mention the cost is beginning to outweigh the pleasure by some margin.


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  20. #92
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Having scraped today one of the poorly ones is absolutely infested in the things. 4 treatments and it’s worse than ever.
    At the point of caving in and giving up to be honest, the stress and the aggro, not to mention the cost is beginning to outweigh the pleasure by some margin.


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    I honestly do know how you feel - came so close to that myself this year. Please remind me, as I've posted replies to so many folk now about flukes so apologies if you've told me this before (afraid I haven't got time to re-read threads today!) - have you tried Lernex Pro with drum isolated, UV off and pond level raised above normal?

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  22. #93
    Last thing on my list Koiz.
    Previously scrubbed above waterline.
    Everything removed and cleaned .
    No baskets, K1 instead plus shower and clarity.


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  23. #94
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Penblei56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Not really, there are no cultures sold in bottles the way conventional filter starters are sold. These facultative bugs are ubiquitous in nature and are looking for a place to call home so just give them an anoxic basket and they'll set up a colony in it.
    Many Thanks for all the informations posted on this site.
    I'd like to have more informations on the bugs used in the BCB.
    In conventional cycle:
    Ammonium is transform in nitrite by nitrosomas bugs with O2.
    Nitrite is transform in nitrate , by nitrobacteria/nitrospira bugs with O2
    Nitrate is transform in N2 by denitrifying bugs with carbon food.
    There is no carbon food in BCB so the previous cycle can't occur.
    There is another cycle using anammox bugs also found in nature. This cycle was discovered at the end of the 20th century and used on waste water treatment.
    Ammonium is transform in nitrite by nitrosomas bugs with O2 ( see picture ) and part of nitrite ions are used by anammox bugs to transfrom ammonium to N2 with no carbon food.
    Are these bugs used in BCB?
    Christian
    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #95
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Penblei56's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=AlanF;352751]Zeolite ammonia absorption is a completely different thing- nothing to do with anoxic filtration[/QUOTE

    Zeolite have the same characteristics as clay in terms of permeability and electrostatic attraction is better.

    The specific surface is closed:
    Sepiolite: 350m2/g
    Chabazite: 250m2/g ( natural zeolite )
    Diatomite: 318m2/g

    The chabazite CEC is superior to the sepiolite one:
    Chabazite:200 meq/100g
    Sepiolite:10-15 meq/100g
    Don't find diatomite CEC

    Chabazite is used in waste water treatment and bonsaï soilWhy do you say it has nothing to do with anoxic filtration?
    Any input on ?

  25. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I set my anoxic filter up just over a year ago.

    23 baskets, 2600 gallon pond, 13 growing koi.

    Initially I left my moving bed filter running with the intention of removing it once confident the anoxic filter was fully operational.

    Over the last 4 months I noticed nitrates were creeping higher, from lows of 5 mg/l to continuous readings over 20 mg/l and over the last month readings in excess of 40mg/l.

    Then over the last month I've been getting regular Ammonia spikes and had to adjust feeding accordingly.

    In the last 2 weeks I've started getting nitrite readings for the first time since getting over NPS a couple of years back. This suggested to me the Anoxic filter may be starting to fail as the moving bed tries taking up the slack.

    Some of my baskets were planted and the plants had gone a bit wild so I decided to cut them back and thoroughly clean out the anoxic pond.

    My baskets are covered in tights and on removing them there was a layer of dusty mulm over the cat litter. Initially I feared the baskets would be totally wrecked but a quick shake under water and the mulm easily washed away.

    I removed every basket and cleaned out the pond and whilst that made the water really murky, once drained there was nothing that actually needed scrubbing.

    I stripped one basket down to see what was going on but underneath the top layer of litter it was absolutely immaculate just like the day I put it together, with the aquabasis still intact in the centre.

    I then put everything back and refilled the Anoxic pond.

    I'm at a loss as to why it has apparently stopped working and hoping it will kick back in to action.

    One final thing to point out is that the main attraction Anoxic had for me was the potential to reduce water changes, and this year I've changed less than half the water I did in the year before anoxic, but I recently bought a TDS meter and was quite surprised to get a reading of 1230ppm. I've now brought that down to 750ppm through numerous large water changes, which was something i hoped to avoid by running Anoxic filtration.

    At the moment its a waiting game hoping my parameters start to improve again.
    Thanks, RS2000, it's good to know I'm not alone!

    I've rebuilt my filter. I'm still getting ammonia and nitrite spikes. I'll stop feeding soon for winter, then see if things are better in March.

    If not, I'm going to convert the anoxic filter into 50% anoxic, 50% moving bed. The massive water changes are not only a huge inconvenience, but not really good practice when water resources are low.

    Fingers crossed it works for us!

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  27. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougcov1 View Post
    Thanks, RS2000, it's good to know I'm not alone!

    I've rebuilt my filter. I'm still getting ammonia and nitrite spikes. I'll stop feeding soon for winter, then see if things are better in March.

    If not, I'm going to convert the anoxic filter into 50% anoxic, 50% moving bed. The massive water changes are not only a huge inconvenience, but not really good practice when water resources are low.

    Fingers crossed it works for us!
    Doug, if you read my article on anoxic filtration, you will see that it's primarily intended as a stand alone system where you can expect near zero ammonia and nitrite and very low or even near zero nitrate too.

    This is because it works in a completely different way to conventional (nitrogen cycle) biofiltration and destroys ammonia directly without producing any nitrite or nitrate. In that situation, it will also be able to mop up any nitrate produced by nitrifying bugs elsewhere in the pond such as on the walls and floors.

    The article highlights the fact that, if you put anoxic filtration in competition with the high nitrate output of a conventional biofilter, it will do it's best to remove the nitrate produced but will always be struggling to keep up and it won't be able to achieve its full potential.
    Anoxic Filtration

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  29. #98
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Penblei56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Doug, if you read my article on anoxic filtration, you will see that it's primarily intended as a stand alone system where you can expect near zero ammonia and nitrite and very low or even near zero nitrate too.

    This is because it works in a completely different way to conventional (nitrogen cycle) biofiltration and destroys ammonia directly without producing any nitrite or nitrate. In that situation, it will also be able to mop up any nitrate produced by nitrifying bugs elsewhere in the pond such as on the walls and floors.

    The article highlights the fact that, if you put anoxic filtration in competition with the high nitrate output of a conventional biofilter, it will do it's best to remove the nitrate produced but will always be struggling to keep up and it won't be able to achieve its full potential.
    Anoxic Filtration
    Manky, as in a BCB, ammonia ( positive charge) is converted directly by bacteria action to nitrogen gas , how nitrate atoms (negative charge) are they attracted and converted to nitrogen gas?

  30. #99
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Penblei56's Avatar
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    To continu on substrate used in anoxic filter, I found this interesting web site mixing zeolite and anammox bacterias:

    https://www.zeolite-anammox.com/what-is-zeolite-anammox

    I also had a look on anoxic filtration in aquarium and found this video explaining the importance of deep substratehttps:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gYIZ_O_D_o

    If anammox bactérias are the bacterias destroying ammonia in anoxic filter, the division time between 1,8 and 30 days could explain why it take so long to have a working filter.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...culture_system

    Christian

  31. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Penblei56 View Post
    Manky, as in a BCB, ammonia ( positive charge) is converted directly by bacteria action to nitrogen gas , how nitrate atoms (negative charge) are they attracted and converted to nitrogen gas?

    Molecular chemistry 101:
    The clay produces a negative charge in the baskets.
    Ammonia (NH4+) has one positive charge so it’s rapidly drawn in by the negative charge in the basket. (Think North and South poles of magnets attracting each other).

    Nitrate (NO3-) has one negative charge so it diffuses into the baskets due to bacterial action but its one negative charge acting against the negative charged basket slows down the rate at which it can do so.

    Phosphate (PO4---) has three negative charges so it diffuses into the baskets due to bacterial action but its three negative charges acting against the negative charged basket slows it down three times as much as the nitrate.

    Take away message – baskets remove ammonia, nitrate and phosphate BUT...

    Ammonia is attracted in very quickly.
    Nitrate diffuses in a bit more slowly.
    Phosphate diffuses in slower than nitrate hence the slower removal than nitrate.
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 16-10-2020 at 01:30 PM.

 

 
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