Results 21 to 40 of 207
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15-08-2020, 04:58 PM #21
Armed with everyone’s input so far, I've begun to make up my six baskets which are 27x27x20. I started by using bottle tops to make feet for water flow underneath:
Feet on Baskets.jpg
I then sifted one whole 30L bag of Sanicat Pink (the other was still soaking in my blue bowl). I was pleased to see there wasn’t anywhere near as much dust and small particles as I thought there would be. This is the debris from sifting enough cat litter to fill one basket:
Sanicat Pink Sieved.jpg
I then divided my 2.5L bag of JBL Aquabasis Plus into 6 equal balls and bagged them up in the legs of tights. I was rather surprised that what I thought would be a little over 400g per ball turned out to be nearer 485g. Which got me wondering – is this too much in ratio to the cat litter? I rinsed the sifted litter and it certainly was better than the un-sifted litter. I got to the point where I could put the basket into a sink of water without a load of pink coming out, so went ahead and added the Aquabasis ball then enclosed the basket in the top part of a pair of tights. I decided to cover the sides also as there were some rough areas on the basket, and this would prevent the koi being able to graze themselves. It would also stop any small bits of cat litter escaping:
Laterite Bags & Finished Basket.jpg
Feeling pleased with how it had all gone, I decided to fill up a tub outside and see how the basket fared before lowering into the pond … and that’s where it all fell down. Despite the dry sifting, rinsing and covering 5 sides with tights, the water is heavily pinked,even after 5 hours :
Still Leaching.jpg
So my Qs now are these:
1) How important is the ratio of laterite to litter? Will using 485g in a 27x27x20cm basket prevent the anoxic action working its best or is more OK? Is there a ‘golden ratio’ that should be observed? I'm guessing normally, people are trying to get as much out of a bag of laterite as poss, but in my case, I've got more than I need for my six baskets so happy to use it all up!
2) I like the idea of the Catsan that Mike used as it's not pink. However, I understand from Manky that "Negative charges in the cat litter in the baskets begin to attract molecules of ammonia (NH4) towards its centre", and this is why litter in the form of Sepiolite or Bentonite is used as clay has a negative charge. However, Mr Google indicates that limestone has a positive charge, whilst quartz is piezoelectric (positive one end, negative the other) so does Catsan litter work as well as clay-based as it appears to be made from quartz & limestone which would have way less negative charge than clay?
3) I appreciate what Kenny is saying about clay being added to water as a ‘tonic’ by some koi keepers, but I really don’t want my pond water discoloured; bearing in mind my baskets are going directly into my pond, not into a separate area that could allow sediment to settle and prevent it reaching my koi, can I please ask:
Kenny – Is this what happened to your pond when you first added your Sanicat baskets, and if so, how and when did it clear? Did it just settle as sediment on the bottom or get taken out by mechanical filtration (can’t see how as it’s so fine!). Did you have to do water changes to rid the colour?
RS – did your Bonsai Moler keep giving off pink as shown in my photo above or does it genuinely rinse clear easily so there is no discolouration of water at all when added to the pond? I'm trying to judge if what i'm seeing here is as good as it gets or not, and if I can justify buying a different substrate to use.
Thanks GuysLast edited by Koiz; 15-08-2020 at 05:10 PM.
11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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16-08-2020, 12:10 PM #22
This is my experiment at 11am today. I lifted my 1st finished basket from its still pink tub and pink water drained from beneath. I then dunked it in the middle tub, and placed it into the 3rd clean water tub and so far so good. The water has remained clear for 1 hour. Yay ! I've now got 2 more baskets soaking in the 1st tub, whilst I'm rinsing litter for another in tiny handfuls at a time to see if this works better and uses less water.
I'm guessing the 1st basket has reached the stage that Kenny described so I'm really hopeful that putting this one in my pond now, directly from the 3rd tub, will result in very little pink escaping and no more leaching once it's set in place.
I would be really grateful if anyone can please answer my other Qs 1) and 2) above still. Particularly the quantity of Aquabasis so I can finish making up my baskets. Thanks
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16-08-2020, 09:18 PM #23
All six baskets now washed and not leaching My solution in the end involved washing very small amounts of litter at a time in a kitchen sieve in two stages 1) rubbing it around quite hard in the sieve whilst under water then 2) rinsing under running tap. When the sink filled up, I'd drain and repeat. Took about 10 full sinks to do enough for one basket. I wanted to use water from the pond during a water change, but that just wasn't practical in the end. Sieve in sink method worked best - just took a stupidly long time and gave me very sore fingers despite the rubber gloves, but it removed a lot of grit as well as the dust. If I had to make up any more than six baskets, I'd definitely take RS's advice to spend a bit extra on the bonsai substrate.
Just need to confirm if it's OK to use the 485g of Aquabasis so I can get them finished. There's a fair bit of 'stone' in the litter so probably only 70% actual clay. I'm thinking the extra bit of laterite in Zone C will increase the negative pull where there isn't 100% clay in Zones A and B. Can anyone offer an opinion on this?
Sent from my SM-N910F using TapatalkLast edited by Koiz; 16-08-2020 at 11:45 PM.
11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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18-08-2020, 10:38 AM #24
I found the molar clay used to absorb oil spills good value and relatively dust free
Think I used euro car parts
Orders over 15 pound delivered free
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18-08-2020, 10:39 AM #25
Looks finer than the cat litter don’t know if that’s a problem maybe combine the two
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18-08-2020, 12:49 PM #26
That's interesting. Is this what you used: https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/euro-car-parts-absorbing-granules-20ltr-542770770
Did you have trouble with the granules coming through the holes in the basket? I'm guessing with enclosing the basket in tights, that wouldn't be such an issue, but would be good hear more about your experience of using it for biocenosis baskets. How long have you been using yours and what results have you seen?11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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18-08-2020, 12:56 PM #27
Still hoping to hear anyone's advice re the ratio of laterite to litter! Would really appreciate an opinion on whether it's OK to use more than the 400g guideline for my size basket.
11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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18-08-2020, 01:52 PM #28
Made a few up as a trial they appear fine
I originally tried adding an anoxic filter around ten years ago it did appear to reduce nitrates
I used Tesco’s litter from memory that was molar clay. Tried to purchase it recently and that avenue appears to be a dead end after a few duff purchases
Eventually found mentions of molar clay on bonsai sites which lead me to the oil spill granules
The laterite needed is also tough to find I’m going with a seachem product and I’ll just bung some in
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18-08-2020, 02:03 PM #29
I couldn't find any suitable litter at Tesco either, hence I went the Sanicat route online. I'm using the JBL Aquabasis as laterite substitute - not overly expensive. I'm guessing I'm probably being too literal in the way I'm making up the baskets - as Kenny said before "over thinking". It's a hard habit to break! I want to get my baskets in the pond so I'm off to use the "big balls" - oooh errr
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18-08-2020, 03:19 PM #30
I would think 400g is just an average target for a standard size 28cm square basket. 300-500 would be ok as long as you have a decent thickness of cat litter around all sides of the "core".
I just dry sieved all the cat litter then ran a hose through the baskets for approx 30-40seconds and bunged them in the pond- any remaining cloudiness soon cleared. It is no different to adding "koi clay" to the pond, it will flocculate other particles and settle out. You are over doing it I think
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18-08-2020, 04:12 PM #31
Sorry I haven't had time to get back to this thread Wendy, my last post said I may be absent for a while because I was expecting to be busy but I've been far more busy than I expected.
This wasn't helped by Windows unexpectedly shutting down my computer and installing it the way it knew I really wanted rather than the way I had it set up and have been happily using for several years along with losing the work I had been doing all that day. Restoring that work from backups and putting everything back the way I wanted it took some time while I figured out how I set it up in the first place but they also kindly deleted my cookies and passwords etc. so that cost me a whole day putting everything back again. I'm seriously considering suing Bill Gates for the inconvenience. Would anybody be interested in a class action or crowd funding me?
While I'm waiting for the list of fellow litigants and for the crowd fund to build up enough to take down this menace to society, I may as well answer the question about optimum laterite amounts in baskets.
There is no need to get overly technical about anoxic filtration, the article makes note of the fact that the system is flexible and adaptable so it can be built to suit individual requirements and space available. Similarly with the baskets. Dimensions etc. are only for guidance so the laterite amount per basket doesn't have to be exact and there isn't a "golden ratio". It only provides that initial source of nutrients for the bugs and plants after which the basket will become a complete self sustaining biotope. The article says the optimum basket size is 30 cm x 30 cm x 20 cm and that anywhere between 200 grams and 400 grams depending on the actual basket size will be sufficient to give that initial start and I've never seen anything that points to getting better results by using a specific amount.
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18-08-2020, 04:33 PM #32
Steve, my anoxic filtration article is written for the international mix of visitors to my site. In some places, especially in America where Kevin Novak first developed anoxic filtration, laterite is freely available and cat litter isn't complicated either, it's basically the same stuff everywhere so you can just go to Walmart and buy as much as you need.
Since laterite has become difficult or impossible to obtain in the UK and in some European countries, I've included a couple of tried and tested substitutes that appear to be freely available everywhere along with a way to determine if any particular brand of cat litter is suitable. Have a read to refresh your memory before you go hunting for substitutes:
Anoxic Filtration
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18-08-2020, 05:30 PM #33
Can’t find the alternative to laterite in the link Syd
Found a video with Dr Novak that flourite red would be a suitable alternative
Let’s hope he’s right
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18-08-2020, 06:37 PM #34
It's a long article Steve. The first part describes what anoxic filtration is and the second part concentrates on building a system so have you read the second page?
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18-08-2020, 07:01 PM #35
I read it on my phone missed the second page prompt lol
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18-08-2020, 07:22 PM #36
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19-08-2020, 04:41 PM #37
Oh - I feel your pain Before I stopped working in 2016 (health probs), as part of my Business Consultancy, I performed IT Management for one client. Even then I was resisting Win 10 as I could see how horrific it was and it was such a dilemma when it came to buying new PCs. Having now been forced at the start of the year off my beloved Win 7 for my home office, I can't tell you the hours I've wasted having to remove bloatware, restore settings, tinker around in the registry, and find work arounds for the never ending problems MS force on us with 10 and 365. It is incredible that they are getting away with it. I'm constantly adding my support to requests for things to be put right or put back to the way they were on the MS forum. I used to feel totally in control of my PCs - not any more, despite how many customisations I've made. In the days when I designed and implemented data systems, if I'd released anything with even a fraction of the glitches MS bestows upon us with every update, I'd have been out of business. And don't even get me started on the MS phone support - they know less about the system than I do in 8 months of using it! So yes... sign me up!
(Gosh that felt good to share that little rant ... but back to fish...)
Thanks so much for clarifying that. I'm guessing now the cat's out the bag that I was an IT nerd, you can understand my desire to always try to get the 'data' right Plus, having had so many issues with my pond for 12 months, I'm trying to avoid anything else going wrong or not working as well as it could. I do hope though that this thread helps anyone else that was suffering from the same dilemma I had about washing the litter and what appeared to be the never ending flow of pink water!
Syd - when you have time, I'd really like to know answers to 3 Qs that I haven't been able to find anywhere yet (and sorry if I've missed them or forgotten what I've read - which happens a lot more than I like!...):
1) Does the Catsan litter, which appears to be limestone and quartz, work instead of the clay? From your guide, I understand that "Negative charges in the cat litter in the baskets begin to attract molecules of ammonia (NH4) towards its centre", and this is why litter in the form of Sepiolite or Bentonite is used because clay has a negative charge. However, Mr Google indicates that limestone has a positive charge, whilst quartz is piezoelectric (positive one end, negative the other) so does Catsan work as well as clay-based substrates?
2) Are the bacteria that colonise our aerated biomedia the same as the ones that eventually colonize the biocenosis baskets, but just work differently because of the lack of oxygen in the basket? If so, is there any way of speeding up the maturation of a biocenosis basket by adding the same type of filter boosts that we use in moving bed media?
3) My baskets are now on the shelf in my pond in such a way as to have water able to penetrate all 6 sides. However, the top and front side of the baskets will get the usual 'green carpet' that all surfaces in my pond do - particularly as I've encased them in tights. How detrimental is this to the ability of the basket to draw in the ammonia, nitrate and phosphate and just how 'clean' do I need to keep these baskets to get the maximum performance out of them?11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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20-08-2020, 01:02 PM #38
OK, here goes:
1) Does the Catsan litter, which appears to be limestone and quartz, work instead of the clay? From your guide, I understand that "Negative charges in the cat litter in the baskets begin to attract molecules of ammonia (NH4) towards its centre", and this is why litter in the form of Sepiolite or Bentonite is used because clay has a negative charge. However, Mr Google indicates that limestone has a positive charge, whilst quartz is piezoelectric (positive one end, negative the other) so does Catsan work as well as clay-based substrates?
No, the positive electric charges on limestone will repel NH4+ . Cat litters consisting of sepiolite and/or bentonite have negative charges on the granules so they will attract NH4+ molecules into the basket. (or cat urine into the granules). I'm not convinced that limestone would make a particularly effective cat litter either if the positive charges on it repel the ammonia in cat urine so it will stay as a liquid film on the surfaces of the granules rather than being absorbed into the granules themselves.
2) Are the bacteria that colonise our aerated biomedia the same as the ones that eventually colonize the biocenosis baskets, but just work differently because of the lack of oxygen in the basket? If so, is there any way of speeding up the maturation of a biocenosis basket by adding the same type of filter boosts that we use in moving bed media?
No, the usual nitrifying bugs (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter) that we expect to find in conventional biofilters are obligate aerobes which means they must have oxygen in their environment in order to make ATP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate) which is the molecule that powers cellular activity in all known forms of life (bugs, animals, fish and humans). The bugs in the centres of biocenosis baskets have to be facultative anaerobes since they are the only types that can switch from oxygen respiration to fermentative respiration to make ATP when oxygen isn't present.
3) My baskets are now on the shelf in my pond in such a way as to have water able to penetrate all 6 sides. However, the top and front side of the baskets will get the usual 'green carpet' that all surfaces in my pond do - particularly as I've encased them in tights. How detrimental is this to the ability of the basket to draw in the ammonia, nitrate and phosphate and just how 'clean' do I need to keep these baskets to get the maximum performance out of them?
The tights and/or the light algae growth won't affect the passage of ammonia, nitrate or phosphate into the baskets nor will a light dusting of silt. If silt should begin to build up on the baskets, remove it by "fanning" or brushing it gently away underwater. Don't be too enthusiastic about this or you will disturb the cat litter.
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20-08-2020, 02:17 PM #39
Great post Syd.
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21-08-2020, 04:31 PM #4011,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
The Daily pond temp thread
Yep , forecast snow here ! Hoping so more money to be made gritting lol Sent from my SM-S918B...