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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    How long will sodium tripolyphosphate remain in the water

    How long will sodium tripolyphosphate remain in the water before I can treat with potassium pomegranate

    I have just done a big water change and removed the chlorine with ST (sodium tripolyphosphate), now I want to treat with PP (potassium pomegranate) but PP can be neutralised with ST, my dosage on the ST was pretty accurate so I haven't overdosed it, but obviously want to treat sooner rather than later


    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  2. #2
    Sodium thiosulphate has a very long life in pure water which is why you can make a stock solution by dissolving dry crystals in water as per the chart below if you prefer to dechlorinate using a liquid rather than adding it as dry crystals.

    In pond water, it is broken down by bacteria which reduce sulphur to provide their energy needs and the rate at which they do this depends very much on individual circumstances.

    The amount of sodium thiosulphate that will actually be "used up" neutralising chlorine in any particular dechlorination occasion depends on the amount of chlorine added to the pond so the dose rates with sodium thiosulphate are generous and there will always be some "left over". This, as you say, will neutralise some of the potassium permanganate you are about to add which will reduce the concentration of the potassium permanganate treatment and reduce its effectiveness.

    It's well known that organic debris in the pond will also "use up" some of the potassium permanganate and will weaken the concentration so the advice is to add the correct dose and then top up the treatment to the full strength again if organic debris has weakened it. Some advise adding a second half dose or small amounts in order to restore the colour to what it was when first added.

    You can use that procedure to top up the strength of the treatment to replace any that has been "used up" either by organics or neutralised by excess sodium thiosulphate but the safest way is to use an ORP meter to monitor the concentration. Start by slowly adding potassium permanganate until the ORP reading reaches 450mV and add more potassium permanganate as necessary to keep it at that level for four hours then neutralise the treatment with sodium thiosulphate.



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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Thanks for the detailed reply, i'll get a OPR meter on order, I assume they are all about the same, within reason.

    Looking at this one at the moment

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Measury-Mea...0224511&sr=8-6
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  5. #4
    That meter will be fine but the probes in ORP meters slowly drift in accuracy so, when used for important measurements such as medicinal treatments, they should be calibrated before use to ensure the correct dose.

    There are different value ORP calibration solutions and that meter seems to be a type that could calibrated with any value but check the instructions when you get it and buy an appropriate one if they state a particular value. You don't need to buy a solution direct from the manufacturer; they are often quite expensive, you can shop around and buy one with the recommended value.

    Get back to me if you need help in choosing the correct solution.

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  7. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    That meter will be fine but the probes in ORP meters slowly drift in accuracy so, when used for important measurements such as medicinal treatments, they should be calibrated before use to ensure the correct dose.

    There are different value ORP calibration solutions and that meter seems to be a type that could calibrated with any value but check the instructions when you get it and buy an appropriate one if they state a particular value. You don't need to buy a solution direct from the manufacturer; they are often quite expensive, you can shop around and buy one with the recommended value.

    Get back to me if you need help in choosing the correct solution.
    Thanks for your help, very informative as always.

    I'll have to have a Google around for the instructions as it says the instructions are in German
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Once the PP has done its job I was going to neutralise with Hydrogen Peroxide at 25 ml per 220 gallon, do I then do a big water change or just leave it as is with the trickle in at 10% a week?

    Then I have to treat with Aqua Source Blanketweed Resolve, which is why I am asking about the water change
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  10. #7
    Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidiser so it's now considered better to neutralise potassium permanganate with sodium thiosulphate at the normal dose rate you would use to dechlorinate the whole pond volume. This is kinder to the koi but it doesn't remove the brown residue which will be removed by the biofilter but obviously not as quickly.

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  12. #8
    Syd, while youíre around (I donít mean to hijack) but Iím about to treat with PP for Trich. Presuming this will be fine and wonít affect my anoxic baskets too much?


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  14. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Syd, while you’re around (I don’t mean to hijack)

    But you have! haven't you
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  16. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidiser so it's now considered better to neutralise potassium permanganate with sodium thiosulphate at the normal dose rate you would use to dechlorinate the whole pond volume. This is kinder to the koi but it doesn't remove the brown residue which will be removed by the biofilter but obviously not as quickly.
    Okay, thanks for that, i'll use ST for the whole pond volume

    So that's 12.5 grams x 4.6 K-gallons = 57.5 grams of ST
    Last edited by RoyLittle0; 23-05-2020 at 01:39 PM.
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  18. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    But you have! haven't you
    Got to get him while you can Roy lol


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  20. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Syd, while you’re around (I don’t mean to hijack) but I’m about to treat with PP for Trich. Presuming this will be fine and won’t affect my anoxic baskets too much?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    First the disclaimer.
    Potassium permanganate kills organic life. Not just pathogenic bugs but also the beneficial ones in biofilters and the microbiome on the koi themselves. That's why it shouldn't be used any more often than necessary because a biofilter can take a few days to recover to the same degree of efficiency as it had before you conducted chemical warfare and koi can take several weeks to to regenerate their biome (so I'm glad the practice of a regular potassium permanganate "maintenance dose" seems to have died out).

    So what does that mean in practice?
    The bugs on the very outside of a basket in zone A will be killed but the ones in zone B and zone C won't be affected. The zone A bugs are ordinary nitrifying bugs and aren't important but the bugs in zone C are the facultative ones that we need because they do all the reduction of nitrate. So, the non essential bugs will suffer but the ones we want won't and the function of the baskets also won't be affected.

    To better understand the zones, see the description half way down the first page of my anoxic article on this link:
    Anoxic Filtration


    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 23-05-2020 at 02:59 PM.

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  22. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Lost one fish already today, so not a good start

    I have kept the PP going for 4 hours and neutralised with ST, the fish are very lethargic, some sinking backwards and then swimming back to the surface again, you can put your hands in the water and hold some of the fish, they don't try to swim off I have mixed up some more ST and put that in and I am now starting a water change, they have a EA130 running continuously during the treatment

    Anything else I can do to help the rest??
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  23. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    They were fine whilst doing the PP, but now one hour later they are not coping well with it
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  24. #15
    Thanks Syd, basically, perform treatment, watch for ammonia/nitrite spikes afterwards


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  26. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    They were fine whilst doing the PP, but now one hour later they are not coping well with it
    Having never done this before Iím a little nervous to be honest but everything Iíve read/watched/talked about prior to today advised hydrogen peroxide to hand and plenty of air.
    Have you got another air pump you can whack on mate?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  28. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Having never done this before I’m a little nervous to be honest but everything I’ve read/watched/talked about prior to today advised hydrogen peroxide to hand and plenty of air.
    Have you got another air pump you can whack on mate?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes I've got an EA70


    and a 120litre air compressor
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  29. #18
    Lol get one of them on there sharpish mate, hope the fishes perk up

    Iím proper shitting myself about doing mine


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  31. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Lol get one of them on there sharpish mate, hope the fishes perk up

    I’m proper shitting myself about doing mine


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I am shitting myself as we speak lol
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  33. #20
    Iím here for you mate, reach out and touch How long will sodium tripolyphosphate remain in the waterHow long will sodium tripolyphosphate remain in the water


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