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22-05-2020, 03:54 PM #1
How long will sodium tripolyphosphate remain in the water
How long will sodium tripolyphosphate remain in the water before I can treat with potassium pomegranate
I have just done a big water change and removed the chlorine with ST (sodium tripolyphosphate), now I want to treat with PP (potassium pomegranate) but PP can be neutralised with ST, my dosage on the ST was pretty accurate so I haven't overdosed it, but obviously want to treat sooner rather than later
4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 09:31 AM #2
Sodium thiosulphate has a very long life in pure water which is why you can make a stock solution by dissolving dry crystals in water as per the chart below if you prefer to dechlorinate using a liquid rather than adding it as dry crystals.
In pond water, it is broken down by bacteria which reduce sulphur to provide their energy needs and the rate at which they do this depends very much on individual circumstances.
The amount of sodium thiosulphate that will actually be "used up" neutralising chlorine in any particular dechlorination occasion depends on the amount of chlorine added to the pond so the dose rates with sodium thiosulphate are generous and there will always be some "left over". This, as you say, will neutralise some of the potassium permanganate you are about to add which will reduce the concentration of the potassium permanganate treatment and reduce its effectiveness.
It's well known that organic debris in the pond will also "use up" some of the potassium permanganate and will weaken the concentration so the advice is to add the correct dose and then top up the treatment to the full strength again if organic debris has weakened it. Some advise adding a second half dose or small amounts in order to restore the colour to what it was when first added.
You can use that procedure to top up the strength of the treatment to replace any that has been "used up" either by organics or neutralised by excess sodium thiosulphate but the safest way is to use an ORP meter to monitor the concentration. Start by slowly adding potassium permanganate until the ORP reading reaches 450mV and add more potassium permanganate as necessary to keep it at that level for four hours then neutralise the treatment with sodium thiosulphate.
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23-05-2020, 10:45 AM #3
Thanks for the detailed reply, i'll get a OPR meter on order, I assume they are all about the same, within reason.
Looking at this one at the moment
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Measury-Mea...0224511&sr=8-64600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 11:32 AM #4
That meter will be fine but the probes in ORP meters slowly drift in accuracy so, when used for important measurements such as medicinal treatments, they should be calibrated before use to ensure the correct dose.
There are different value ORP calibration solutions and that meter seems to be a type that could calibrated with any value but check the instructions when you get it and buy an appropriate one if they state a particular value. You don't need to buy a solution direct from the manufacturer; they are often quite expensive, you can shop around and buy one with the recommended value.
Get back to me if you need help in choosing the correct solution.
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RoyLittle0, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 12:28 PM #54600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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Manky Sanke Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 12:58 PM #6
Once the PP has done its job I was going to neutralise with Hydrogen Peroxide at 25 ml per 220 gallon, do I then do a big water change or just leave it as is with the trickle in at 10% a week?
Then I have to treat with Aqua Source Blanketweed Resolve, which is why I am asking about the water change4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 01:08 PM #7
Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidiser so it's now considered better to neutralise potassium permanganate with sodium thiosulphate at the normal dose rate you would use to dechlorinate the whole pond volume. This is kinder to the koi but it doesn't remove the brown residue which will be removed by the biofilter but obviously not as quickly.
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RoyLittle0 Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 01:15 PM #8
Syd, while you’re around (I don’t mean to hijack) but I’m about to treat with PP for Trich. Presuming this will be fine and won’t affect my anoxic baskets too much?
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Manky Sanke, RoyLittle0 Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 01:35 PM #94600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 01:36 PM #10
Last edited by RoyLittle0; 23-05-2020 at 01:39 PM.
4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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Manky Sanke, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 02:38 PM #11
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23-05-2020, 02:52 PM #12
First the disclaimer.
Potassium permanganate kills organic life. Not just pathogenic bugs but also the beneficial ones in biofilters and the microbiome on the koi themselves. That's why it shouldn't be used any more often than necessary because a biofilter can take a few days to recover to the same degree of efficiency as it had before you conducted chemical warfare and koi can take several weeks to to regenerate their biome (so I'm glad the practice of a regular potassium permanganate "maintenance dose" seems to have died out).
So what does that mean in practice?
The bugs on the very outside of a basket in zone A will be killed but the ones in zone B and zone C won't be affected. The zone A bugs are ordinary nitrifying bugs and aren't important but the bugs in zone C are the facultative ones that we need because they do all the reduction of nitrate. So, the non essential bugs will suffer but the ones we want won't and the function of the baskets also won't be affected.
To better understand the zones, see the description half way down the first page of my anoxic article on this link:
Anoxic Filtration
Last edited by Manky Sanke; 23-05-2020 at 02:59 PM.
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bigcarpchaser, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 04:17 PM #13
Lost one fish already today, so not a good start
I have kept the PP going for 4 hours and neutralised with ST, the fish are very lethargic, some sinking backwards and then swimming back to the surface again, you can put your hands in the water and hold some of the fish, they don't try to swim off I have mixed up some more ST and put that in and I am now starting a water change, they have a EA130 running continuously during the treatment
Anything else I can do to help the rest??4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 04:18 PM #14
They were fine whilst doing the PP, but now one hour later they are not coping well with it
4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 04:18 PM #15
Thanks Syd, basically, perform treatment, watch for ammonia/nitrite spikes afterwards
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RoyLittle0, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 04:20 PM #16
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RoyLittle0, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 04:23 PM #174600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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23-05-2020, 04:24 PM #18
Lol get one of them on there sharpish mate, hope the fishes perk up
I’m proper shitting myself about doing mine
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RoyLittle0, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 04:26 PM #194600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
2 x 18,000 lh pumps
Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
Idealseal MS290
My Pond Build
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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23-05-2020, 04:27 PM #20
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RoyLittle0, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
Aquaforte Dm vario 20000 pumps
Still for sale. Postage available for cost Sent from my SM-S901B using Tapatalk