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  1. #21
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    Ok thanks. Just got to find some way of getting rid of the waste and I will order one.

    I currently have sieve and bead so bulky waste stays on sieve and I can flush and remove manually. The bead has pipe work going down to a gravel flower bed with the outlet about 12 inches down. I don’t have to worry about build up as the waste is just water and very fine stuff.

    If I go for a drum then it is all going to go down the waste pipe and I am worried it will build up and block. I cannot get to any manholes/underground waste pipe or have a pit as there is no where for it. the garden is sloped with the pond in the middle so it has to go towards the front....

    Why is nothing ever easy!


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    From the experience at the weekend - the volume of solids removed was staggering - in my temporary setup, I have a manhole about 5 feet away but I've been using a large bucket. I would agree that it needs plumbing or a large tank with a level sensor and a sump pump to the flowerbeds!

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Regarding noise.... Big issue for me as drum is next to back fence the other side of which is an alley which the undesirables use to case out gardens to rob...

    I stuck Kingspan to the filter pit lid for insulation and to reduce noise. I also made a simple box by sticking pieces of 50mm kingspan together (with silicone sealant) and this box goes straight over the top of the drum and has cut-outs for the pipes. With filter pit lid down you cannot hear a thing. Did the same with the macerator which is much louder then the drum and you can't hear that either unless you really try.

    As for pressure, my water pressure (by the time it reaches end of garden) is below the minimum required for the drum, but it still works perfectly and I've only jet washed the drum once since having it.

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    New plan, I have found a manhole cover right near where my current waste pipe goes to.....only issue is it is nextdoors. I think he will be fine and it is in a border which you cannot see so might be perfect.

    How do I attach a waste pipe to/through a metal manhole lid?


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  7. #24
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    This was Sunday.. and not at it's worst! (I'm aware that the bio return should have some height but inside there's a plastic panel I've added to keep some depth of water for the bio media until my delayed bits arrive). The old pond I inherited hence the state of the decking.. pond 2.0 will be better

    IMG_7174.jpg

    I tried bribing them with food but.. nope not having it!


    Water direct from the pond this morning - decent clarity, there's a few little bits in there:




    Output direct from filter bio and return:

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  9. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    New plan, I have found a manhole cover right near where my current waste pipe goes to.....only issue is it is nextdoors. I think he will be fine and it is in a border which you cannot see so might be perfect.

    How do I attach a waste pipe to/through a metal manhole lid?


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    Can you not go underground and drill through the side of the drain?

    That's what I did.....

    IMG-9146.jpg

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  11. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    Ah ok good plan.


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  13. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    Neighbour said he is fine with me using his drain....bonus.


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  15. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    At 12k litres is it worth going for the 16 rather than the 25? Am I going to see any benefit? The pond cannot get any bigger so not worried about upsizing.


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  17. #29
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    At 12k litres is it worth going for the 16 rather than the 25? Am I going to see any benefit? The pond cannot get any bigger so not worried about upsizing.
    I would also think the amount of fish stock would also play a part in that question.

    Assuming a 1-2x pond turn over that 12,000 litres quickly becomes 24,000 l/h.

    My new pond is looking like 6675 litres and I suspect 6-8,000 litres for a 16 is good figure, and 12,000 is probably at it's upper limit range (given 16 is probably max clean water flow through the drum).

    At 12,000 l/h with a particularly dirty day (cleaning the pond) or fish grow in size then it may start to struggle with the flow rate required. When overloaded the pressure will simply break the softer debris up as it's forced through the drum, creating fines or worse overflow down the waste chute if pump fed. A slightly larger drum means it's having an easier life and it's less likely to either be constantly washing or producing fines.

    You could ask Tony @draco. He's got a reputation for giving an honest answer even as a manufacturer!

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  19. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    I will just go for the bigger one, thanks


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  21. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    Am I right in thinking that by having a drum and dealing with waste more efficiently the existing bead and shower should perform better?


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  23. #32
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    Am I right in thinking that by having a drum and dealing with waste more efficiently the existing bead and shower should perform better?


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    It's got to perform better. You can never over filter. And the drum is the best machanical filter out there. What a difference it made to my pond. If you set it up right lol don t forget there are other factors as well. Bottom drain position right
    Circulation of water. From mid returns.
    To help to get the crap to the drum.
    It's also how you get the crap to the drum.
    So it can do its job.
    Fred

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    Last edited by freddyboy; 09-04-2020 at 06:15 AM.

  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    Trying to do my shopping list to avoid issues when installing in lockdown!

    I recently fitted an auto top up to my sieve, this will be replaced by the drum. So I will need two water I letís.....one for the drum wash and another for a top up?


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  26. #34
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    You could put a T before the drum one for the wash and one for top up.
    Is the water supply hard plumbed in or hose pipe?
    If plumbed in I would fit isolator valves on each supply for easy maintenance.

    Would definitely go for the 25,my pond isnt much bigger than 12000 ltrs at 3000 gals and that has a Draco 25 working great.
    Manufacturers figures arnt allways right as you may well know.
    John

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  28. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    Is there space to add an auto top into the clean side of drum? I just use hose pipe so easy to play around with.


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  30. #36
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    Am I right in thinking that by having a drum and dealing with waste more efficiently the existing bead and shower should perform better?
    Let's talk poop and particle sizes for a minute.

    >58 microns koi poop,

    70 micron - Draco drum high flow rate option
    58 micron - Draco drum standard drum mesh

    50 micron - human hair width
    40 microns - upper limit of single algae cell size (size depends on species of algae) - longer tends to be filaments of multiple cells
    8 micron - human red blood cell width
    5 microns - algae cell diameter (green water)
    2 microns - some single cell parasites
    1 micron - largest bacteria (although most are in 0.3-0.5 micron size)
    0.5 microns - tannin
    0.3 micron - bacteria
    0.3 micron - HEPA filter
    0.3 micron - pores on the surface of activated carbon (if you have granules then the water will simply not go through the pores)


    For Drum filters
    A drum is all about mechanically filtering the particle sizes suspended in the water. A bio film can develop on the drum reducing the size of the drum mesh further. The quote below would suggest that the bio film on the drum and any following bio bed would also trap and absorb some <20 micron particles.

    For Bead filters
    Bead filters remove solids from water by different mechanisms. Physical straining is probably the most dominant mechanism removing larger particles (>50 microns). Finer particles (<20 microns) are removed at a lower rate by a process called bio absorption. The particles are captured by bacterial bio film on the surface of the bead. Studies show that bead filters capture 100% of particles >50 microns and 48% of particles in the 5-10 micron range per pass. The more passes the more solids captured. **Important** in order for the bead filter to perform FINE micron straining it MUST be fully colonized with bacteria.
    source: econobead-filters

    So logically any bio-film filtering by 'bio absorption" would occur on any bio film - moving beds, bakki showers, even the walls of pipes. The dirtier the filter, the more likely the bacteria are starved of oxygen and the film will die off. So any static filter that clogs during filtering is bad news for any biofilm.

    For Sand filters
    20-40 microns but the dirtier they get the lower the flow rate and the finer particle size can get filtered but that's true of most filters!

    Bakki Shower
    Alphagrog also has pores but it doesn't state how big they are other than indicating bacteria in the surface area - this would logically suggest that it's larger than 1 micron to contain the bacteria film (probably in the 20-40 micron range).

    So with that in mind:
    * good bacteria operate the nitrogen cycle
    * good bacteria in the bio film absorbs some <20 micron particles
    * large particles will clog finer filtration or finer pores that are home to good bacteria killing them
    * filtration that clogs will reduce oxygen and nutrients to the biofilm behind it in the water path (ie clogging can create large dead areas as the water will simply flow a different route)

    So your drum will remove down to 58 microns and as a biofilm appears on the drum, it will physically start filtering finer particles (at the expense of flow rate) until you clean the drum.
    Your bead filter will only receive <58 micron particles which means less clogging but finer clogging will still occur, Less clogging equals better biofilm health absorbing finer particles still - 50% of 5-10 micron particles.
    Your bakki filter will then receive some <50 micron but will receive less 5-10 microns from the healthier bead filter which in turn means your bakki shower alfagrog pores don't clog as easily and the bacteria will be healthier as a result.

    You may still have some particles, tannins for example are 0.5 microns but putting water through that fine a mesh means really RO (or through the pores in solid sheet of activated carbon) the entire pond and that will clog very quickly!

    So that's my logic..

    TL;DR short answer - yes

  31. #37
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    Wow. That is a response!

    Thanks


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  33. #38
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    Trying to do my shopping list to avoid issues when installing in lockdown!

    I recently fitted an auto top up to my sieve, this will be replaced by the drum. So I will need two water I let’s.....one for the drum wash and another for a top up?
    Yes. You will need a top up. The drum wash water goes to waste so you don't (or shouldn't) get any additional water from the drum washes. You may loose some from soggy material being flush away but a minimal amount. Worse case with a pump fed drum is that the drum blocks and the water level overflows into the waste chute emptying the pond. for gravity fed the clean side being empty causing the pump to run dry is the issue.

  34. #39
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapleyr View Post
    Is there space to add an auto top into the clean side of drum? I just use hose pipe so easy to play around with.
    It depends.

    In the picture below the system is running pump fed - the sensor is longer. I also have the gravity fed sensor which is shorter but fits on the clean side.

    The 16 drum is shorter than the 25 so you will have more space. Note that the lit sits flush to the tope of the box - no space to get a hose in without modifying the box.

    Attachment 31000

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  36. #40
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Rapleyr's Avatar
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    This is how I have it setup on the sieve




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