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Thread: Return of PP

  1. #1

    Return of PP

    Hi Guys,

    I'll try make this brief.

    We set our pond up 18 months ago and have bought a few small fish since then and all has been well.

    We moved down south from up north about 4 years ago and left a pond of fish behind with the intention of bringing them down as soon as we could. Well we only managed to get them about 4 weeks ago. They has been treated extremely badly (long story), and had pretty much every bug going on them.

    As we don't have any quarintine facilities we had to put the fish in the pond and treat the pond with a 4ppm PP treatment. Unfortunately despite what people say this totally wiped out our filters so we've had ammonia spikes and are currently fighting a nitrite spike.

    Anyway to my question. At the end of the PP treatment I neutralised the horrible brown scummy water with HP and had lovely clear water, but for some reason 2 days ago I noticed the water was looking murky and a little brown, and today I had cause to put my hand in the water and to my surprise it came out brown as it would at the end of a PP treatment.

    So what's going on?

    Cheers,

    Jay



  2. #2
    Jay,

    I don't wish to come across as being critical but you should be very careful whose advice you take regarding treating koi.

    Potassium permanganate is a very corrosive chemical and using it in a pond at high rates will badly damage the gill lamellae causing "clubbing" which is a form of scarring which may never properly heal and return to normal. If the koi survive the gill damage there is a distinct possibility that the permanent clubbing of their gills will limit their ability to take up oxygen and they will never be able to fully develop to their full potential because it will be as if they are permanently in a pond with low dissolved oxygen.

    For those who don't posses a redox/ORP meter to ensure treatments are limited to a redox value 450 mV, the recommended dose rate is 1.5 mg/L (1.5 ppm) or 6.8 grams per 1,000 Imperial gallons. Some people increase their recommended dose to 2.0 mg/L but, at 4.0 mg/L, you were fortunate that killing your biofilter was the only bad consequence.

    I've written about the time I was asked to help when someone used a high dose of potassium permanganate but it was too late, the gill damage was too great and the whole pond was wiped out.
    Koi health

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  4. #3
    Hi Manky,

    Thanks for your reply and advice.

    I have used this level of PP many times before without any obvious detrimental effects.

    I originally git this dosing advice quite some time ago, and I thought from your website, but judging by your reply I must have got it elsewhere. Everything I've read says a dose between 1 and 4ppm depending on your experience. And sorry, I've just looked at the dose I use and it's 3ppm, just over 100g for a 40k pond.

    Anyway, have you any idea as to why my pond water has suddenly gone brown?

    Thanks,

    Jay.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    have you any muck or debris on bottom,it could be tannins leaching out as debris rots,or are you feeding a food that browns the water like QK ultimate does,although i cant see it being that as you say your hand went brown,,,,,,andi

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  7. #5
    I can assure you that I've never recommended a potassium permanganate level greater than 1.5 mg/L and I can only repeat that you should be careful whose advice you follow.

    It annoys people who actually understand koi health and physiology that unqualified people do something to their koi then, if they survive, they begin recommending that as the correct thing to do without knowing whether there is any long term harm. The usual statement is "the koi looked happy so they must be ok" and the Internet is responsible for promoting such bad or dangerous advice as it gets picked up and repeated on websites controlled by other unqualified people.

    If a dose of 1.5 mg/L brings the ORP value of a pond up to the maximum level of 450 mV as recommended by qualified experts in koi health and physiology, I'm not sure why anyone would recommend a higher level which would subject koi, especially their gills, to the corrosive effects of a higher level. Even 450 mV ORP is a harsh treatment and destroys the koi's microbiome (collection of beneficial bacteria in and on their body) as well as its aggressive effect on the gills.

    Pushing that up to 2.0 mg/L, as some people suggest, will raise the ORP to around 600 mV which is the recommended level to sterilise public swimming pools so it's a level I wouldn't recommend.

    Any concentration higher than that, such as 3 to 4 mg/L. relies on there being organic pollution in the pond which will reduce the ORP to a level which the koi can survive. I've never seen anyone who recommends such high levels be able prove that koi aren't damaged and be able to quote the results of long term research that shows that the gill lamellae haven't been permanently scarred or whether there are other long term health problems.

    Let me ask a question which will put into context what I've said about exceeding a recommended treatment dose.

    A doctor undergoes a rigorous learning programme that ensure they fully understand what they need to know before they are allowed to give treatments. If a GP advised a treatment dosage of 1½ teaspoons of a preparation for a child, why would anyone think that 3 or even 4 teaspoons would be better?

    The reoccurrence of the brown stain in your water shows how much organic life was oxidised by the treatment and is still dying from the effect. If you hadn't killed your biofilter, the bugs in it would benfit from the manganese oxide in the stain. You could add more hydrogen peroxide if you want to
    quickly oxidise that away but hydrogen peroxide is also aggressive so I wouldn't recommend that after such an agressive potassium permananate treatment. When the biofilter recovers, it will remove the stain but, untill then I would recommend water changes to dilute it.

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  9. #6
    Hi Manky,

    Thanks again for one of your usual extremely informative replies. Unfortunately as you say this advice is all over the Internet, most stating that a 1.5ppm dose won't kill the harder to kill parasites and they the pond will need retreating several times after. Anyway, lesson learnt, I'll go with a 1.5ppm dose in future and for now hope that my fish are ok.

    Can I just clarify something. It has been 2 or 3 weeks since the PP treatment, and until a few days ago the water was clear, so would it take that long for the organic life to restain the water?

    I do have a flowerbed wich is fed from my skimmer and returns via a waterfall, this bed does have organics on the bottom of it which is being constantly renewed as plants die back. My two nexus get cleaned regularly so waste in there is removed.

    Hi Andi, thanks for your reply, I think you and Manky are thinking the same thing with the dead plants and I think your both hopefully right. My food doesn't alter the water colour at all, I've gone back to Medikoi and aren't ever trying anything else unless they change the recipe, as this stuff is excellent, I never see anything dangling from the fish or in my filters and the fish grow really well from it.

    Thanks again guys, as always you're a great bunch and really help in my times of need.

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  11. #7
    Syd, would you be in a position to reccommend an affordable ORP meter as i would imagine most pond owners do not posess one, myself included. (Although ive only ever used PP on nets, empty bowls and empty tanks)

    I know that "affordable" is relative but to give you some context, i happened upon a site selling TDS meters (which i also don't have) for under £5.00

    I almost bought one but then thought "its going to be rubbish isn't it" so i didn't.


    Note - I know ORP and TDS are not the same thing. I just mentioned TDS because i saw one that cheap.


    However, if you know of a reasonably good TDS meter, could you reccommend that too?

    Thanks

  12. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    ive been looking at these,maybe syd can say if ok,,,andi https://www.amazon.co.uk/HiKiNS-Accu...tdoors&sr=1-17

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    although i really think these look nice lol,,,,andi https://www.amazon.co.uk/TekcoPlus-M...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

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  15. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Links arnt working for me mate

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    Johnathan

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  17. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    HiKiNS Digital Water Quality Meter High Accuracy 4 in 1 PH/TDS/EC/TEMP Tester for Aquariums Hydroponics Pool Spa Drinking water https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07PLGB8..._iOZODbM5SH0M3

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  19. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Megson View Post
    Hi Manky,

    Thanks again for one of your usual extremely informative replies. Unfortunately as you say this advice is all over the Internet, most stating that a 1.5ppm dose won't kill the harder to kill parasites and they the pond will need retreating several times after. Anyway, lesson learnt, I'll go with a 1.5ppm dose in future and for now hope that my fish are ok.

    Can I just clarify something. It has been 2 or 3 weeks since the PP treatment, and until a few days ago the water was clear, so would it take that long for the organic life to restain the water?

    I do have a flowerbed wich is fed from my skimmer and returns via a waterfall, this bed does have organics on the bottom of it which is being constantly renewed as plants die back. My two nexus get cleaned regularly so waste in there is removed.

    Hi Andi, thanks for your reply, I think you and Manky are thinking the same thing with the dead plants and I think your both hopefully right. My food doesn't alter the water colour at all, I've gone back to Medikoi and aren't ever trying anything else unless they change the recipe, as this stuff is excellent, I never see anything dangling from the fish or in my filters and the fish grow really well from it.

    Thanks again guys, as always you're a great bunch and really help in my times of need.
    Body flukes (gyrodactylus) are live bearers so one treatment should kill them complete with the immature young inside them that haven't yet been born. Gill flukes (dactylogyrus) are egg layers so treating a second time after a few days is usually necessary in order to kill any flukes that hatch out from eggs that were laid prior to the treatment. However, since flukes attach themselves to their host fish by their haptors (hooky thingies), they will still remain attached after they have been killed.

    The length of time they will remain attached will vary according to what treatment killed them and scraping soon after a treatment may show some dead flukes in the mucus sample, so look for movement to ensure that any flukes are still alive rather than just "dead bodies".

    I hadn't taken notice that it is so long since the treatment so my revised answer as to why the brown stain is recurring is this. For a few days there will be some organic life that was fatally damaged but the reason why the brown is recurring after so long is due the way hydrogen peroxide makes the original brown seem to disappear. Sorry it's a bit technical but I'll try leave out the nasty chemistry and simplify it as much as possible.

    When potassium permanganate reacts with hydrogen peroxide, one of the reaction products formed is manganese(IV) which is manganese oxidised to the fourth state of oxidation and which is colourless so non-chemists might assume that it has vanished. However, manganese(IV) is still lurking in the water.

    The fourth state of oxidation is all to do with how electrons are whizzing round the nucleus of their atoms. They aren't happy with their new "whizzing around" state so they slowly return to the normal state and the manganese molecules are no longer colourless.

    This process isn't quick so, if the biofilter is functioning normally, the bugs use the manganese(IV) long before it can turn from colourless back to brown however……..

    You used so much potassium permanganate that you had a huge hidden amount of the residue in its colourless form in the water and since you also committed genocide on your poor biofilter bugs they weren't there to remove the colourless form before it decayed back to the brown form. In purely chemical terms, adding more hydrogen peroxide would push it back up to the colourless manganese(IV) state and you could keep doing this until your biofilter matures but, as I said before, I wouldn't recommend that. Water changes will help dilute out the problem until your biofilter rematures.

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  21. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahsoka Tancho View Post
    Syd, would you be in a position to reccommend an affordable ORP meter as i would imagine most pond owners do not posess one, myself included. (Although ive only ever used PP on nets, empty bowls and empty tanks)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahsoka Tancho View Post

    I know that "affordable" is relative but to give you some context, i happened upon a site selling TDS meters (which i also don't have) for under £5.00

    I almost bought one but then thought "its going to be rubbish isn't it" so i didn't.

    Note - I know ORP and TDS are not the same thing. I just mentioned TDS because i saw one that cheap.

    However, if you know of a reasonably good TDS meter, could you reccommend that too?

    Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by andikoi View Post
    ive been looking at these,maybe syd can say if ok,,,andi
    Quote Originally Posted by andikoi View Post


    The electronics that go into meters are cheap to make in places like China and are very reliable. TDS and salinity meters work by passing an electrical current through the water between two gold plated metal probes which cost very little to manufacture and they can use cheap electronics so they can be manufactured and marketed a low prices.

    However, reliable, accurate and long lasting pH or redox/ORP probes are complicated and expensive to make. So, inexpensive pH or redox meters may have reliable electronics built into them but they won't have a reliable, long lasting probe.

    For analysing water sample parameters, I use a Hanna bench meter which has a separate pH probe. The pH readings are accurate; calibration is easy and long lasting and the probe shows no signs of aging after two years of use but, when I eventually have to replace the probe, it will cost nearly £200 (just for the probe).

    So that's the problem. If you buy an inexpensive ORP or pH meter, you will get a cheaply made probe that may work for a time but, when it ages and stops working, you will have to replace it or replace the whole meter if the probe can't be removed and replaced.

    By all means buy an inexpensive ORP or pH meter but don't expect it to have a long life or to retain its calibration for longer than a few weeks before it needs recalibrating again.

    The Amazon pH, temperature and TDS meter has separate probes so the pH probe could be replaced when it's knackered. As I said above, TDS probes are inexpensive to make and would probably be long lasting too.




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  23. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Body flukes (gyrodactylus) are live bearers so one treatment should kill them complete with the immature young inside them that haven't yet been born. Gill flukes (dactylogyrus) are egg layers so treating a second time after a few days is usually necessary in order to kill any flukes that hatch out from eggs that were laid prior to the treatment. However, since flukes attach themselves to their host fish by their haptors (hooky thingies), they will still remain attached after they have been killed.

    The length of time they will remain attached will vary according to what treatment killed them and scraping soon after a treatment may show some dead flukes in the mucus sample, so look for movement to ensure that any flukes are still alive rather than just "dead bodies".

    I hadn't taken notice that it is so long since the treatment so my revised answer as to why the brown stain is recurring is this. For a few days there will be some organic life that was fatally damaged but the reason why the brown is recurring after so long is due the way hydrogen peroxide makes the original brown seem to disappear. Sorry it's a bit technical but I'll try leave out the nasty chemistry and simplify it as much as possible.

    When potassium permanganate reacts with hydrogen peroxide, one of the reaction products formed is manganese(IV) which is manganese oxidised to the fourth state of oxidation and which is colourless so non-chemists might assume that it has vanished. However, manganese(IV) is still lurking in the water.

    The fourth state of oxidation is all to do with how electrons are whizzing round the nucleus of their atoms. They aren't happy with their new "whizzing around" state so they slowly return to the normal state and the manganese molecules are no longer colourless.

    This process isn't quick so, if the biofilter is functioning normally, the bugs use the manganese(IV) long before it can turn from colourless back to brown however……..

    You used so much potassium permanganate that you had a huge hidden amount of the residue in its colourless form in the water and since you also committed genocide on your poor biofilter bugs they weren't there to remove the colourless form before it decayed back to the brown form. In purely chemical terms, adding more hydrogen peroxide would push it back up to the colourless manganese(IV) state and you could keep doing this until your biofilter matures but, as I said before, I wouldn't recommend that. Water changes will help dilute out the problem until your biofilter rematures.
    Very informative as always syd.
    My question. Is ST better to use then
    hydrogen peroxide. As this is what I use.
    To kill PP off. From pink to brown.
    Fred

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  25. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    Very informative as always syd.
    My question. Is ST better to use then
    hydrogen peroxide. As this is what I use.
    To kill PP off. From pink to brown.
    Fred

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    Yes...…....

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  27. #16
    How's that for an uncharacteristically short answer?

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  29. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    How's that for an uncharacteristically short answer?
    Brilliant right to the point Return of PPReturn of PPReturn of PP

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  31. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    How's that for an uncharacteristically short answer?
    personally im a little underwelmed at the short answer lol,,,,andi

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