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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Anoxic Filtration - So Shocked I Nearly Burnt my Dinner

    Whilst waiting for the oven to cook my dinner I decided to quickly test the pond parameters.

    Was I secretly sceptical about Anoxic Filtration??? YES.

    Did I think to myself I bet it doesn't work for me.... YES

    Did I think to myself that if it does work it will probably take till next Spring to see any results.... YES

    My Anoxic filtration has been up and running since 14th September, less than 2 full weeks.

    Here's my Nitrate readings for the last 18 Months:


    • 14th June 2018 = 40 ppm
    • 1st July 2018 = 60 ppm
    • 7th July 2018 = 40 ppm
    • 12th Aug 2018 = 60 ppm
    • 20th Aug 2018 = 60 ppm
    • 14th Sept 2018 = 80 ppm
    • 18th Oct 2018 = 80 ppm
    • 8th Nov 2018 = 40 ppm
    • 23rd Dec 2018 = 40 ppm
    • 7th March 2019 = 20 ppm (Pond extension & fresh water)
    • 25th March 2019 = 40 ppm
    • 18th April 2019 = 40 ppm
    • 26th April 2019 = 20 ppm
    • 26th May 2019 = 20 ppm
    • 20th June 2019 = 20 ppm
    • 7th July 2019 = 40 ppm
    • 24th July 2019 = 20 ppm
    • 19th Aug 2019 = 40 ppm
    • 14th Sept 2019 = 40 ppm (Anoxic installation date)


    Do you see the trend?


    • 26th Sept 2019 = 0 ppm.




    Was it a faulty test kit? DON'T KNOW
    So a 2nd test was done with another kit, also zero within the allotted waiting time, but did go slightly pink after 15 mins.
    Could both test kits be faulty - UNLIKELY, but nothing is impossible. Need to test one of the other tanks to be sure.





    12,000 litre pond with 10 Koi ranging from 30cm to 60cm. (There was 12 Koi up until I moved 2 on a few days ago).

    12x 27x27x19cm baskets.
    3 x 18x18x13cm baskets.

    MVIMG_20190914_165637.jpgIMG_20190914_165649.jpgIMG_20190914_165612.jpg



    What's more I didn't touch my existing bio filtration (76 litres of K1 in a Nexus 220), so the most I expected was a slight reduction in Nitrate. I didn't even think it was possible to get zero nitrates whilst still running mature moving bed bio filtration.

    Also my nitrates are 10 - 20 ppm straight out the tap.

    I'm genuinely shocked by this. I have never seen a zero nitrate reading in my whole life!

    Next plan is to read up a bit more about whether I really can reduce water changes as much some people claim - Seen a couple of posts on forums and a Youtube video where the people concerned were only doing 2 partial water changes per year. I still find it hard to believe that will be acceptable.


    Last edited by RS2OOO; 26-09-2019 at 02:50 PM.

  2. #2
    Congratulations Steve,

    I've been banging on for years about properly installed anoxic filtration systems being able to produce near zero ammonia, near zero nitrite AND near zero nitrate and you are just the latest person who has found that to be true.

    When Kevin Novak designed the anoxic system, he recommended only one or two water changes per year based on the fact that the anoxic design replicates the biological processes that take place in a natural lake that don't have a stream or river running through them. The argument is that no one goes round doing regular water changes in a natural lake so populations of beneficial bacteria build up and deal with all pollutants.

    Anyone who doesn't subscribe to that argument is free to do whatever rate of water changes they prefer and the article I wrote on my website has all the possible modifications to Kevin's original design to make water changes easy for those who wish to do them.
    www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/building_an_anoxic_system.html

  3. #3
    I’m not finding the same with mine however my nitrate is 20+ out of the tap.
    I’m definitely seeing a “cycle” of slight rise and fall though which after 3 weeks of fish is pretty acceptable.
    I did have a big ammonia spike in the first few days but that was to be expected and dealt with by a partial water change.
    Now changing around 5% every couple of days as necessary.


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  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hey BCC,

    Whether this is a blip or not I don't know, but I think there's a lot to be said by having a "mature" system to begin with.

    Yes I am shocked at these results, and I've not checked phosphates yet, but even I think its too much of a coincidence to have my first ever zero nitrate reading (in 30+ years of fish keeping) just weeks after installing the biocenosis baskets. I used so much pond water cleaning the cat litter out that I've not actually carried out a water change since installation, so there's nowhere else for that nitrate to have gone. No plants either.

    Having been confronted with the evidence, aside from the potential for 2 faulty test kits, the only remaining factor the pessimist within me can use to disregard the results would be by suggesting there is something in the cat litter or aquabasis that prevents nitrate test kits from working!


    Syd,
    I've spent a few hours looking up the whole water change aspect, and i found this post by Kevin Novak which essentially says his book has been misinterpreted and the need to do water changes is unique to each system, which I guess is pretty obvious since he's pointed it out. However, the "need" for regular water changes is almost certainly reduced by a significant margin.

    Anoxic Filtration System: Water changes...Only two times a year!


    Hope he doesn't mind that I've reproduced the text below:

    Water changes...Only two times a year!




    Koi-Vet Forum Question:



    Q: How can two major water changes per year (coupled with replacing losses due to evaporation) possibly deal with the obvious shortcoming of declining water quality -- other than by simply denying that it exists?

    Don

    A: This is a very good question and deserves an astute answer. I also hope that everyone on Koi-Vet reads this and takes note of this response, especially any of the newer hobbyists in ponding.

    You yourself know about water stability, decline, and the parameters that must be held in order to keep our animals alive and healthy along with water changes. Water quality is always a problem because as time passes, various physical, chemical, and biological processes working in and around the pond alters the initial tabula rasa characteristics of the water. However, not all hobbyists are so inclined to do so, water changes that is, and a number of these people will only do as much or as little, as they humanly possibly can; “getaway with!”

    With that said; all water changes are dictated by PE (Pollutant Equilibrium). This is the amount of pollutants being made by the system, its animals, plants, the filter, and the amount the water that is exchanged from periodic water changes, will reach what is called a steady state. This also includes the amount of foodstuffs that are being added to the system on a daily bases. The fish food itself, will add nitrogen and phosphates to the system, as you know. The filtration system will be the limiting factor here because of its capabilities or its incapability to process such pollutants on hourly or daily bases. If more pollutants are being made/added to the water body proper than what the execution of a water change can eliminate or lessen to a greater degree, for the safe keeping of our animals, then a larger filtration system is needed. Therefore, larger portion of the water mass must be exchange with clean water, until a PE is then reached.

    The only reason we execute such water changes is because: No matter what kind of filtration system we use, even a state-of-the-art filtration system, we are still dealing with a closed system. Therefore, a filtration system will not stop the decline of pollution in our ponds, but will only slow it down to some degree, and the degree of degradation is determined by so many factors that it would be anyone’s deduction as to what the causes of the insults are and what the outcome would be on the system parameters. Therefore this judgment on water changes will be based on an “individual’s decision,” on when, and how much and why such will be conducted.

    I will also quote right from my free iTunes Book if I may: “Even with the Anoxic Filtration System, as good as it is, still needs to have at least two partial water changes made each year. Generally, the greater proportion of water that is changed during the filter clean-out, the lower the stabilizing pollutant level in the pond would be. Because of this filtration systems capability, the Pollutant Equilibrium levels are reached within a short time-span of weeks instead of months, without all the frustrating water changes and the cost of doing them.” I believe that the hobbyist is reading this one section of my free iTunes Book and taking it to the bank, as to say.

    You must read my whole book and then one can determined that if Nitrates are eradicated and /or diluted to a greater degree by the filter, then water changes for Nitrates (N03) sake, is not a prerequisite for keeping our pond healthy. In fact, I give this as an example in my free iTunes Book: “For example, lets say you have a pond, for the sake of argument will say this pond is 3000 gallons, that is producing 8-ppm (ppm = parts per million) of nitrogen (NO3) every month, this now becomes a constant.” As we all know, Nitrates; are only a small constituent of the amount of pollutants that our ponds have to deal with. In no way did I ever say or advocate in my book, that if you use my system, water changes can be eliminated or that only two water changes a year will suffice, no matter what the pollution equilibrium is or is not! I myself cannot, and will not, second-guess what a ponds pollution mass is. In fact I will quote from my book once again: “There is little argument whether or not a periodic partial water change is necessary in order to maintain a healthy pond that fish can live in without undue stress. I also think that all hobbyists would agree that all ponds would benefit from more frequent water changes, and generally this would be “the more frequent the better.” Does this sound like a person that only advocates two water changes a year?

    However, I also must add that there are several hobbyist using the Anoxic System that only do one too two large water changes a year with excellent results in fish growth, heath, ect., ect., for many years now. Because this is a repeatable constant, there must be some legitimacy into what I say in my book about me only executing two large water changes a year in my testing pond.

    As you have already stated there is more to the pollution picture in a pond than just one end-byproduct of a specific bacterium. Any hobbyist can supersede the filtration capabilities and you and I have no control over that. However, if the pollution constants are, let say, too much food or over stocked pond, no filtration system made for the hobbyist will overcome these insults. Not even the Anoxic Filtration System for that matter. I see this with people using the Nexus system, were they add on supplementary filtration to an already expensive filtration system, just to handle what the filtration system cannot.

    Too many hobbyists that read my free iTunes Book only read the words “still needs to have at least two partial water changes made each year” thinking only; “two partial water changes a year, great!” Of course, that is not what I say at all. As you can see this is the bare minimum that I recommend, and even at the bare minimum, hobbyist that uses this system will not even do that much, believe it or not! My system is good, but it can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. However, I must interject here with an observation that a 10% water change a week would be useless, if the hobbyist does not know what their PE is to begin with.

    I also stated in my book: “That is excellent for an 18-year-old pond, which has never had a complete water change”. This testimonial was made to let the hobbyist know that a complete teardown (like some system require) of the system has never been executed, in other words; a 100% of its water mass has never been replaced at one time or another.

    I also say in my iTunes Book: “Now let us take for example the Anoxic Filtration System. In the 18 years that I have been experimenting/studying and researching this system, I only clean the filter system twice a year, once in March and another time in late autumn at the end of October. This is the only water change my pond has ever received in 18 years.” Some hobbyists that use this system can and have done the same thing as myself, and some have done even better using this system than I. All I am telling you is what “I have done under controlled conditions in an experimental pond.” I just give you the results that the Beta-testing pond and I have had. After all, I do not know your animals feeding habits, stocking levels, geographical location, or your pond husbandry. Nevertheless, I do say in my iTunes Book to clean the filtration system out at lest twice a year. No filtration manufacture can predetermine what a person will do with their filtration systems 100% of the time, and neither can I for that matter.

    In fact in my iTunes Book, I give an example of one hobbyist that only does two water changes a year and has crystal clear water that will impress the most hardcore hobbyist into acquiescence. However, he does not “over feed” his Koi nor does he “overstock” his pond. The relationship between filter and animal load is in equilibrium with each other. Not all hobbyist fall into this category.

    I also must take 100% of the blameworthiness for my iTunes Book not coming across very clearly to the hobbyist and for that, I make an apology.

    Kevin

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  7. #5
    I have Kevin's original CD book from 2010 and I can confirm that he said:

    "I only clean the filter system twice a year, once in March and another time in late autumn at the end of October. This is the only water change my pond has ever received in 18 years."


    Hobbyists who read that may have assumed that would apply to every anoxic set up.

    Your quote from his blog in 2013 is an answer to a question on the Koi Vet forum where he was asked about water changes so he clarified what he had originally said and gave more details.

    “…. all water changes are dictated by PE (Pollutant Equilibrium) ….” “…. Therefore, this judgment on water changes will be based on an “individual’s decision,” on when, and how much and why such will be conducted ….” “…. even with the Anoxic Filtration System, as good as it is, still needs to have at least two partial water changes made each year ….”


    Pollution Equilibrium is a technical term meaning the balance of the pollution going into the pond water from fish and food etc. and the water change regime diluting it out. Since much depends on actual circumstances, his answer makes clear that water changes are very much reduced but the water change regime is best decided by the pond owner.


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  9. #6
    One of the main reasons I decided to utilise this method of filtration was in an attempt to minimise water changes and dispense with the additional expense of running another air pump 24/7 turning over K1.
    Time will tell I suppose and this time next year I’d hope to have a better understanding of how my pond is working. In reality, it hasn’t been the best time of year to stock a brand new pond with fish due to the declining temperatures but I’m quite surprised about how low my readings are after 3 weeks. I was cackling myself the first week as my ammonia was spiking and a couple of the fish were flashing however they’ve settled right down now.
    It’s not an easy task trying to fit in all the monitoring etc though. I’m now testing every 2 days, comfortable that nothing seems to be out of the ordinary.
    Defiantly looking forward to seeing how things progress with a few more fish and a stepped up feeding regime in the spring.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  11. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Nice one RS. Looks like you have cracked it.
    Two testing kits matching won t be duff.
    One maybe but not two.
    Good on you

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  13. #8
    RS You could use the test kits on water from a neighbours pond or aquarium just to see if they’re faulty.
    or perhaps your tap if there’s normally nitrate from your tap water.

    I’m so jealous you’ve been able to achieve zero nitrate. Congrats!

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  15. #9
    I've read this article with great interest but during our recent constant heavy rainfall, how are you managing the PH are you doing more water changes now to allow for heavy rainfall lowering the PH or are just adding bicarb.

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  17. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Toffee,
    I have other fish tanks and another koi vat, just need to get round to testing them to verify the test kits, but in all fairness they're the same kits I've been using for the last year and most of the monthly readings came from those kits, so it would be a surprise if they're both now dud.


    Dave,
    Had a lot of rain here too and I've drained around 500 litres from the pond over the last fortnight. But as for PH, it never changes. It reads a constant 8.2 day and night all year round. Rarely get a reading of 8.1 maybe twice a year but that's it. Tap water is at 7.6 but I never a add enough to the pond in one go to change the ponds 8.2 reading.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  19. #11
    I posted this on a FaceBook page earlier today in response to posts about whether rain affects the pH of ponds:

    The fact that rain water is acidic is often quoted as a reason why it's bad for ponds but a sense of proportion is needed.

    When rain drops first condense out of clouds they initially are at the neutral pH of 7.0 but as they fall through the air, carbon dioxide will dissolve into them and they will become weakly acidic at a typical value of about pH 5.

    So yes, rain adds acid to the pond but you can't just add or subtract values of pH like adding or subtracting apples in a fruit bowl. pH doesn't work like that so this is where a sense of proportion will help us understand what will happen to a typical koi pond.

    If a good downpour adds a centimetre to a pond that is 1,200 cm (4 ft) deep, any effect will be effectively "diluted" to 0.08% (1/1200 %).

    If a pond had a good KH before the rain then the pH change after a 0.08% addition of a very weak acid won't be measurable. However if the pond had a very low KH before the addition, then a 0.08% addition of a weak acid may well make a big difference and maybe even cause the pH to crash.

    The UK is due for some heavy rain over the weekend so everyone with an open pond can see for themselves what effect rain will have on their own pond. Go out before the rain and measure your pH, KH and pond depth then measure them again afterwards and you will see how much effect is or isn't caused by how much rain.

    BTW don't try to measure the pH of rainwater with a manual test kit. Rain water has such a low KH that anything will alter the pH and pH reagents are either acidic or basic (alkaline) so they will immediately alter the value. Even pH probes can alter the pH of very low KH water by virtue of the way they work by measuring the H+ ions but that gets very technical very quickly so I'll spare you the explanation.
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 27-09-2019 at 03:26 PM.

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  21. #12
    The reason I asked was about 12 -13 years ago I had just come out of hospital after a major back operation, and I took my eye of the ball for a short period and neglected checking water parameters, and changing out any water, and consequently I lost 9 large koi due to what I believe was a PH crash, this came about suddenly with no prior warning just before going to bed I checked the pond as I usually do only to find the koi are at the top all in a serious distress state, I quickly checked the water parameters, and found 0 Ammonia, 0.1 Nitrite, 60 Nitrate but a PH of 4.6, but our tap water is around 7.8 PH constant, and so is the pond, also the Nitrite is normally 0.0, so nitrite was slightly elevated, but I had never seen the PH ever this low, the only explanation was we had constant heavy rain for weeks on end, and with me restricted a bit I was just draining the pond water down because of overfilling, and not replacing any water with fresh treated tap water, and also not checking the water parameters as I normally would have, this was a tragic lesson I had never experienced before in over 35 years of keeping koi, or since.

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  23. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave26 View Post
    The reason I asked was about 12 -13 years ago I had just come out of hospital after a major back operation, and I took my eye of the ball for a short period and neglected checking water parameters, and changing out any water, and consequently I lost 9 large koi due to what I believe was a PH crash, this came about suddenly with no prior warning just before going to bed I checked the pond as I usually do only to find the koi are at the top all in a serious distress state, I quickly checked the water parameters, and found 0 Ammonia, 0.1 Nitrite, 60 Nitrate but a PH of 4.6, but our tap water is around 7.8 PH constant, and so is the pond, also the Nitrite is normally 0.0, so nitrite was slightly elevated, but I had never seen the PH ever this low, the only explanation was we had constant heavy rain for weeks on end, and with me restricted a bit I was just draining the pond water down because of overfilling, and not replacing any water with fresh treated tap water, and also not checking the water parameters as I normally would have, this was a tragic lesson I had never experienced before in over 35 years of keeping koi, or since.

    The cause of a sudden PH crash like that can be determined by measuring your KH level (Carbonate Hardness - abbreviated in German hence the K and not C)

    KH is a PH buffer.
    The higher the KH the more stable your PH. My KH is very high at 14dH out the tap, and generally around 8-11dH in the pond. (dH is degrees hardness, measured by the amount of drops you use on the test kit to change the water colour in the vial).

    KH gets used up by your biological filter and once it reaches zero the PH can crash very quickly, even after a small amount of rain, or no rain at all. You could have a PH of 7.5 in the morning and if all the KH gets used up during that day then your PH can crash and all fish dead by the afternoon.

    In some soft water areas the KH is zero out the tap and you have to constantly maintain it with Bicarbonate of Soda.

    I'd recommend buying a test kit that includes a KH test.

    In many respects the KH test results are more crucial than the PH because it is the KH that keeps the PH stable. If just measuring PH it could be fine one day and totally crashed the next.

    One big advantage of Anoxic filtration is that the type of processes (bacteria?) used to convert ammonia to nitrogen(?) don't deplete KH at all, unlike a normal biological filter which is constantly using KH to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrates.

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  25. #14
    After reading your comments I tested my pond water this morning as you suggested, I must admit I never realized the importance of KH test and I seldom carried out this test, because what you stated makes sense, I figure I never to old to learn, thanks for your info.

    Ammonia 0.0 mg/l

    Nitrite 0.0 mg/l

    Nitrate 30 mg/l

    PH 7.5

    KH 9 DH

    GH 15 DH

    Phosphate 2.0 mg/l

    Test taken after heavy all night rain, also replaced 5% water change on 27/09/19 two days ago.

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  27. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    You've got plenty of KH there, so I guess your previous problem was related directly to the lack of water changes which gradually depleted all that KH.
    Your GH is very high (water very hard) same as mine which is 18 dH out the tap and about 15dH in the pond. Not much you can do to reduce it but my dechlorinator has softening capability (see dedicated purifier forum thread) which reduces it very slightly.

    Had to do a very large water change yesterday as part and parcel of a pond repair, 21% water changed in total, plus 200 litres of torrential rain water added to pond overnight (1.6% of volume).

    This time I also measured Phosphates to see if the Anoxic had reduced them. Sadly it hasn't yet.


    Ammonia 0
    Nitrite 0
    Nitrates between 0 and 5 mg/l (used a 3rd different test kit, plus water out the tap has 20 mg/l, so anoxic is still working).
    PH 8.1 (down from the usual 8.2 due to water change and rain).
    KH 10
    Phosphates 1 mg/l.

    Nitrates between 0 and 5 is still a fantastic reading and lower than any reading I've ever had prior to running anoxic.

    Phosphates readings were 2 mg/l throughout summer, but were 1 mg/l on the day I started the anoxic filter, therefore the anoxic filter has made no change to this reading so far.

    I don't know why the Phosphate reading hasn't budged since anoxic. Not sure if it takes longer than the nitrate reading to improve or if there's some other reason.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 29-09-2019 at 02:19 PM.

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  29. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Am sure manky can advise us on that one mate after reading this am really thinking of doing it like

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

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  31. #17
    Phosphates - maybe something in the food?

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  33. #18
    RS2000 - Yes very hard water in my part of Surrey, like you I used two different test kits mine were Kusuri, and Columbo although the Columbo kit is out of date not sure how much difference that would make, and the Kusuri KH test for some reason did not change colour how it should it just went a muddy brown colour !

    What water test kit are you using and what have you found giving the most reliable accurate readings.

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  35. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toffee View Post
    Phosphates - maybe something in the food?
    Tbh with readings generally between 1 & 2 ppm I guess these are just normal readings whatever you feed. Correct me if wrong though.

    Hopefully the anoxic will reduce it towards zero eventually. Only reason I want it gone is to inhibit algae growth in the anoxic section so I can remove the ugly black cover.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  37. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Dave,

    I'm using API, NT Labs pond lab and Colombo kits. I alternate between the 3 as different ones seem easier to read the results on different tests.

    I created a thread somewhere reviewing all 3 and detailing the benefits and shortfalls of each.


    Edit: Here's the link:

    https://www.koiforum.uk/product-revi...test-kits.html
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 29-09-2019 at 10:52 PM.

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