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  1. #81
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    My little 3 stage has done well but as it lives outside the clear tube has now got algae in it. For £50 it's helped with several oops moments with the little existing pond (Ie almost lost all the fish at one point) and certainly earnt it's keep for over summer top ups etc (the pond has a small leak in the liner).

    Looking back at my comment for 13000l I will simply run it at full rate - to remove the big stuff and then add a dechlorinator/dechloromine treatment and cycle for for a day or two.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  3. #82
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Found it really cheers mate ill have a good read tonight Water Purifiers / Dechlorinators - Info & Ideas top write up as always from you bud

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

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  5. #83
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    Found it really cheers mate ill have a good read tonight Water Purifiers / Dechlorinators - Info & Ideas top write up as always from you bud

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    No worries mate, you are welcome.

    It is obviously tailored towards my tap water which doesn't contain chloramine so cartridges might be different for you if your water has chloramine, but otherwise it should see you right.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

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  7. #84
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    No worries mate, you are welcome.

    It is obviously tailored towards my tap water which doesn't contain chloramine so cartridges might be different for you if your water has chloramine, but otherwise it should see you right.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    Can't make heads nor tails of mine mate me and words don't get along manual labour to the end lol

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

  8. #85
    That's not too hard to understand if you only want to know about chlorination and pH so I've deleted the other parameters to make it easier to read.

    Free Chlorine
    Average value 0.468 mg/L with a minimum of 0.07 mg/L and a maximum of 0.62 mg/L
    Total Chlorine
    Average value 0.552 mg/L with a minimum of 0.15 mg/L and a maximum of 0.83 mg/L.

    Since Total Chlorine is the total of the Free Chlorine plus Chloramine, you can work out the Chloramine by subtracting Free from Total (i.e. Total minus Free equals Chloramine).

    Average Chloramine 0.552 - 0.468 = 0.084 mg/L
    Minimum Chloramine 0.15 - 0.07 = 0.08 mg/L
    Maximum Chloramine 0.83 - 0.62 = 0.21 mg/L


    pH (given as the Hydrogen Ion concentration which is scientifically correct)
    Average value 7.086 with a minimum of 6.6 and a maximum of 7.6

    The pH values will be measured as it leaves the pumping station when Chlorine/Chloramine is present so the values will rise after dechlorination and aeration.


    Easy peasy innit?


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  10. #86
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    That's not too hard to understand if you only want to know about chlorination and pH so I've deleted the other parameters to make it easier to read.

    Free Chlorine
    Average value 0.468 mg/L with a minimum of 0.07 mg/L and a maximum of 0.62 mg/L
    Total Chlorine
    Average value 0.552 mg/L with a minimum of 0.15 mg/L and a maximum of 0.83 mg/L.

    Since Total Chlorine is the total of the Free Chlorine plus Chloramine, you can work out the Chloramine by subtracting Free from Total (i.e. Total minus Free equals Chloramine).

    Average Chloramine 0.552 - 0.468 = 0.084 mg/L
    Minimum Chloramine 0.15 - 0.07 = 0.08 mg/L
    Maximum Chloramine 0.83 - 0.62 = 0.21 mg/L


    pH (given as the Hydrogen Ion concentration which is scientifically correct)
    Average value 7.086 with a minimum of 6.6 and a maximum of 7.6

    The pH values will be measured as it leaves the pumping station when Chlorine/Chloramine is present so the values will rise after dechlorination and aeration.


    Easy peasy innit?


    only thing that confused me on that was the 'mgCl2/l'

    at first glance i thought magnesium chloride per litre!
    assume it means microgrammes of chlorine per litre?

    also
    does sodium thiosulphate remove chloramine as well as chlorine from pond water?
    i've seen a post somewhere saying it didn't because of the ammonia bond?

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  12. #87
    For the benefit of those who ought to get out more, magnesium chloride is MgCl (it has a capital M)

    For normal folk, "yes" sodium thiosulphate removes the chlorine component or chloramine which is the toxic part for koi.

    However, it leaves the the ammonia component and this is what I find people misunderstand.

    There’s no need to worry about the amount of ammonia left behind because it's only a low level and will soon be removed by the biofilter. Sensitive people can taste chlorine or chloramine at levels above 0.8 mg/L so this is the highest normally added to domestic water supplies.

    Even a 100% water change with the highest normal level of 0.8 mg/L chloramine in the supply will only leave 0.25 mg/L ammonia in the pond after it had been dechlorinated by sodium thiosulphate or a proprietary dechlorinator based on sodium thiosulphate. That isn’t ideal but is within tolerable limits, even at a high pH, and this will be quickly removed by the biofilter.

    The level of ammonia left behind after a more normal water change will be diluted by the volume of water already in the pond so it will only be at a trace level. E.g. the ammonia level in the pond after a 10% change will be 0.025 mg/L and a 20% change will only leave 0.05 mg/L. These levels are only detectable even by the best electronic testers and, as I said above, they will quickly be removed by a working biofilter anyway.


    Edit: I forgot to say mg/L is milligrams per litre not micrograms.
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 06-01-2022 at 12:36 PM.

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  14. #88
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    only thing that confused me on that was the 'mgCl2/l'

    at first glance i thought magnesium chloride per litre!
    assume it means microgrammes of chlorine per litre?

    also
    does sodium thiosulphate remove chloramine as well as chlorine from pond water?
    i've seen a post somewhere saying it didn't because of the ammonia bond?
    Snap - I'm at the very point that, I'm assuming this is safe for fish use: https://apcpure.com/product/sodium-t...riendly-pouch/

    The description seems to suggest it is for aquarium use and foodstuffs (use with salt) -the production purity being stated and the breakdown of remaining products is quoted.
    However a separate link suggested essentially stated use something else for chloramine. Other links seem to suggest that as the chloramine breaks down into chlorine and ammonia that it will remove the chlorine but your filtration will need to remove the ammonia spike.

    Only issue is I stopped chemistry at A level and even then it wasn't a strong subject for me so I can see - the penta isn't an issue, but the purity of the product to fish perhaps sensitive to the remaining chemicals may be?

    The water is now 2 weeks old.. so I suspect the free chlorine is gassing off nicely, leaving only the longer term chloramine still to breakdown hence using ST to clean the released chorine up. There's a little ammonia present detected by the NTLabs kit and the pH is 7.. Only issue is the kit doesn't have a Cl test *facepalm*
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  16. #89
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Snap - I'm at the very point that, I'm assuming this is safe for fish use: https://apcpure.com/product/sodium-t...riendly-pouch/

    The description seems to suggest it is for aquarium use and foodstuffs (use with salt) -the production purity being stated and the breakdown of remaining products is quoted.
    However a separate link suggested essentially stated use something else for chloramine. Other links seem to suggest that as the chloramine breaks down into chlorine and ammonia that it will remove the chlorine but your filtration will need to remove the ammonia spike.

    Only issue is I stopped chemistry at A level and even then it wasn't a strong subject for me so I can see - the penta isn't an issue, but the purity of the product to fish perhaps sensitive to the remaining chemicals may be?

    The water is now 2 weeks old.. so I suspect the free chlorine is gassing off nicely, leaving only the longer term chloramine still to breakdown hence using ST to clean the released chorine up. There's a little ammonia present detected by the NTLabs kit and the pH is 7.. Only issue is the kit doesn't have a Cl test *facepalm*
    i've used this stuff from amazon in the past, that says its sodium thiosulphate pentahydrate

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sodium-Thio...ps%2C67&sr=8-3

    for chlorine i just use DPD4 tablets and view down from the top of the vial any trace of pink i change the carbon...
    i don't like the lovibond rapid dissolve ones as they make the vial opaque.
    crush the tablet and mix with a thin stick, don't shake the vial or leave to stand for too long, or it will react with the oxygen in the air and start to turn pink anyway....

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Palintest-DPD-No-250-Tablets/dp/B07123BX1C/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=dpd+4&qid=1641470980&sr=8-4


    when i run out of things to spend my money on, i'll probably get a digital hanna chlorine checker....

    https://queni-koi.co.uk/care-treatme...-checker-p6330
    Last edited by davethefish1; 06-01-2022 at 01:16 PM.

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  18. #90
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Been a while since starting this thread, but there is something to update:

    Remember this:

    Water Purifiers / Dechlorinators - Info & Ideas-3podwaterpurifier1-jpg



    The metal frame was inside my filter pit away from all the elements for 2 years and i noticed rust bubbles appearing pretty much everywhere but didn't do much about it.
    While moving house it went into dry storage for another 6 months or so.
    At the new house it wouldn't fit inside the filter pit so was located outside, albeit in a sheltered corner between 2 right angle walls so whilst being outside it wasn't overly exposed to elements.

    And this is what it looked like after another 3 months:



    So if you are buying one of these and don't want it rusting away I'd recommend either painting it or having it powdercoated. We really shouldn't have to do this with brand new products but the quality of pretty much everything these days is poor and you have to take immediate steps if you want something to last.


    Maybe I should also mention keeping these outside over winter without completely draining them first is also a bad idea........a mistake that set me back £50 from finer filters (Would have been £74 if I'd bought from Vyair)

    Last edited by RS2OOO; 08-03-2023 at 12:52 PM.

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  20. #91
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Been a while since starting this thread, but there is something to update:

    Remember this:

    Water Purifiers / Dechlorinators - Info & Ideas-3podwaterpurifier1-jpg



    The metal frame was inside my filter pit away from all the elements for 2 years and i noticed rust bubbles appearing pretty much everywhere but didn't do much about it.
    While moving house it went into dry storage for another 6 months or so.
    At the new house it wouldn't fit inside the filter pit so was located outside, albeit in a sheltered corner between 2 right angle walls so whilst being outside it wasn't overly exposed to elements.

    And this is what it looked like after another 3 months:



    So if you are buying one of these and don't want it rusting away I'd recommend either painting it or having it powdercoated. We really shouldn't have to do this with brand new products but the quality of pretty much everything these days is poor and you have to take immediate steps if you want something to last.


    Maybe I should also mention keeping these outside over winter without completely draining them first is also a bad idea........a mistake that set me back £50 from finer filters (Would have been £74 if I'd bought from Vyair)

    Been there, done it and got the cracked canisters to prove it.

    Nice update
    ________________________________________________
    All we ever wanted was everything,
    All we ever got was cold,
    Get up, eat jelly, sandwich bars and barbed wire,
    Squash every week into a day.

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  22. #92
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    Been there, done it and got the cracked canisters to prove it.

    Nice update
    The marketing blurb goes on about how strong they are.

    Even my cheapest flimsiest hose pipe didn't burst when it got frozen solid at -6C.

    Yet this 8mm thick reinforced canister literally split into 2.

    It could have saved me a bigger disaster though because after discovering it I immediately went and insulated the flexi pipe from the bottom of my gravity fed filtter that runs through a hole in the filte pit and just lays in the corner of the garden with a ball valve on the end. Would have emptied the pond if that burst.

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  24. #93
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    The marketing blurb goes on about how strong they are.

    Even my cheapest flimsiest hose pipe didn't burst when it got frozen solid at -6C.

    Yet this 8mm thick reinforced canister literally split into 2.

    It could have saved me a bigger disaster though because after discovering it I immediately went and insulated the flexi pipe from the bottom of my gravity fed filtter that runs through a hole in the filte pit and just lays in the corner of the garden with a ball valve on the end. Would have emptied the pond if that burst.
    I remember when my pond nearly emptied due to the veggie filter overflowing. The neighbour noticed the sound of the pond had changed and I came outside to find the fish swimming around in 6" of water! Bloody pump fed system! I had to top it up in stages so as not to mess up the water quality even more than I just had! Had to quarter fill it every day or 2 I think? The water cress in the veggie filter went after that and then a float switch was fitted to hopefully stop the water level being pumped too low again. I also caught a 2" to 1.5" flexi rubber boot reducer before it split on the skimmer line but that would have only drained about 6" before the skimmer ran dry and the pump would have ran dry and cut out.

    I've found that as long as the water keeps moving at a reasonable rate it stops things from freezing but as we've both found out a trickle in system isn't fast enough to not freeze up!
    ________________________________________________
    All we ever wanted was everything,
    All we ever got was cold,
    Get up, eat jelly, sandwich bars and barbed wire,
    Squash every week into a day.

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  26. #94
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Bust my big blue on Sunday got a new one now and moved it all into filter house now, 1st is the old one which will be useable again and 2nd pic is where its original space was where I kept it. 3rd pic is new one and 4th pic is it in its new space.

    No idea as to why pics are on their sides

    yard is still a work in progress, patio etc is due some TLC when weather warms.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Tom Koi; 08-03-2023 at 09:18 PM.

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  28. #95
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    I've heard anecdotally that chlorine in tap water will have 'gassed off' after standing for five days. I've never tested the theory though. I'm assuming that turning the water over with an air stone would help that process.
    So filling a large tank through a 3pod is probably the way I'll go.
    Water changes can be made using this 'aged' water.
    Hopefully that'll do the trick, as these big blues just do not seem to justify the cost. After all, you can always add some carbon in the filter system as a safety measure too.
    ...or just add the carbon to the tank I'm 'ageing' the water in...
    Last edited by Alburglar; 09-03-2023 at 01:54 AM.
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  30. #96
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    I've heard anecdotally that chlorine in tap water will have 'gassed off' after standing for five days. I've never tested the theory though. I'm assuming that turning the water over with an air stone would help that process.
    So filling a large tank through a 3pod is probably the way I'll go.
    Water changes can be made using this 'aged' water.
    Hopefully that'll do the trick, as these big blues just do not seem to justify the cost. After all, you can always add some carbon in the filter system as a safety measure too.
    ...or just add the carbon to the tank I'm 'ageing' the water in...
    I thought chlorine gasses off quicker than that but if you have chlorimide? That takes days to gass off.

    Sounds like a job for Super Syd (Manky Sanke)
    ________________________________________________
    All we ever wanted was everything,
    All we ever got was cold,
    Get up, eat jelly, sandwich bars and barbed wire,
    Squash every week into a day.

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  32. #97
    This is a long post but it fully explains adding water to a pond when there is chlorine or chloramine in the supply. Read it if you want to know the facts rather than the myths that are often repeated on social media:

    Some people are relaxed about adding small amounts of un-dechlorinated water to a pond but I very much advise against it. This practise was ok many years ago when only chlorine was used to sanitise water because it gasses off quickly but water suppliers will be going over to using chloramine in the future because it lasts much longer in the supply pipework than chlorine.

    The half life of a compound is the length of time it takes to decay or decompose to half its original strength (under any given set of circumstances).

    The half life of chlorine due to natural gassing off in well aerated water exposed to the atmosphere can be as short as about 2 hours (very dependent on aeration and sunlight).

    With a 2 hour half life, whatever level of chlorine gets into a pond as a result of not fully dechlorinating a top up will reduce by 50% every 2 hours. E.g. 50% after 2 hours; 25% after 2 more hours and it will be 12.5% of its original level after a total of 6 hours so the level will be less than 10% of the original in 7 hours.

    With the dilution by the water in the pond, and the fact that chlorine halves in strength every 2 hours, if small amounts of incompletely dechlorinated water got into a pond, it wasn’t ideal but it would be survivable. However, now that chloramine is increasingly being used, it's a different story.

    Chloramine has a half life of anywhere from a week to 23 days especially at higher values of pH so, if incomplete dechlorination or adding undechlorinated water results in any chloramine getting into a pond today, it could still be at half its strength in 3 weeks’ time and, during that time, you will have been adding more.

    That's why I don't recommend any practice of adding undechlorinated water to a pond including a slow trickle or the practice of spraying it in which wasn't even effective at removing chlorine let alone chloramine!

    The problem with many purifiers is that they are much slower to adsorb chloramine than chlorine so, if a purifier flow rate is set to fully remove chlorine, and chloramine is suddenly used in the supply, most will pass straight through into the pond and will persist as explained above.

    My simple DPD test can be used to check whether any chlorine or chloramine is getting through the purifier or already in the pond if insufficient dechlorinator has been used. Details are on this link.
    Questions Answered

    If a purifier isn’t removing all the chloramine, sodium thiosulphate can be used instead. I calculated this chart for students on my on-line water quality course which is designed for an international student base so I calculated it for all three major measuring systems which allows them to use whichever units they prefer. You only need to use enough for the amount of top up water that is about to be added but sodium thiosulphate is virtually non toxic unless added in ridiculous quantities so you can be very generous in the amounts added.

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