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15-08-2018, 08:36 AM #1
Weird Seneye NH3 & NH4 readings and two injured shubunkins
Hello all
I have a newly installed Seneye in my pond (it's actually a Reef model which is supposedly identical but with a few other features) and the NH3/NH4 readings don't seem to make sense.
Current readings are...
NH3... 0.066ppm
NH4... 24.68ppb
pH... 8.08
Temp... 18.6°C
The NH3 level would seem worryingly high, but I've also been using an API drop test kit which indicates that the total ammonia is less than 0.25ppm.
Using this calculator, if I enter the NH3, pH and temperature I get a total ammonia level of 1.59809, whereas the Seneye reported total (NH3 + NH4) would be 0.09068.
Entering the pH, temperature and total ammonia of 0.25 (assuming the worst case from the API drop test) I get an NH3 of 0.010325.
The slide, which was brand new, was soaked for around two days prior to putting it in the pond. I've got another slide soaking at the moment
It's hard to see how the readings could be correct based on the calculator results, or am I missing something? I've contacted Seneye for advice, but any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
I have more confidence in the API kit and the fish (four koi, some shubunkins & rudd) seem perfectly happy. However, I've just removed two shubunkins that look as though something's had a go at them... they both have chunks taken out of their sides. None of the other fish have any such damage. There's a photo below of them in a bucket... I've subsequently quarantined them (I have no quarantine tank, so I've used an old black bin with an air stone and a couple of water chestnut plants for them to hide under... no idea if that's the right thing to do).
Does this look like damage or some kind of infection? Or indeed both?
IMG_20180813_221952.jpg
The filtration on the pond is poor (one of the reasons I've just started building pond v2... will probably start updating my other thread shortly) so I change 20% of the water each week, sometime more, and use an appropriate amount of Blagdon Fresh Start to remove the chlorine. I'll occasionally dip with some swimming pool test strips to check there's no free chlorine (there never is).
I can deal with losing two shubunkins, but would be very concerned if anything was to happen to Larry, Christian, Mbappe or Usain
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15-08-2018, 09:03 AM #2
An I missing something or are you mis reading the decimal place in your numbers?
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15-08-2018, 09:22 AM #3
That was one of my thoughts too... a few people with the Seneye seem to have come to the conclusion that the decimal point is actually in the wrong place, but unless I'm being totally clueless it's definitely reported as 0.066ppm.
Screen grab below...
photo.jpg
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15-08-2018, 09:51 AM #4
A very swift reply from Seneye...
Thank you for your email.
The first thing that we would like to mention is that your Seneye device measures NH3 directly, but that the value for NH4 it reports is a calculated value based on other parameters that the Seneye does measure directly. Because of this, the value for NH4 is likely to be less accurate than the reading for NH3, and we would therefore suggest that the NH3 readings from your Seneye is a more accurate representation of the conditions in your pond, especially since NH3 is toxic to fish whereas NH4 is not.
Similarly, the NH3 reading from your Seneye will be more accurate than a calculated NH3 value using an API test kit. This is because calculating for NH3 based on other readings is based on the accuracy with which these other parameters are measured, and these accuracies can become magnified throughout the calculation. Seneye devices were designed to measure NH3 directly so that it reports a value that is much more accurate.
From looking at your account on our system, we can see that there is a correspondence between your temperature, pH and NH3 readings as they rise and fall throughout the day. This suggests to us that your slide is reporting NH3 and pH accurately, as we have seen on slides that have been damaged, for instance by the addition of strong chemicals to the water, that they are no longer able to record these daily changes as accurately. If you could please send us a picture of your slide so that both sensor pads are visible (not the white side) against a white background and in natural lighting, we will be able to further assess whether the slide chemistry has been damaged.
Kind regards,
Seneye Support Team
Impressed with the speed of response, but doesn't it seem odd to refer to an API test kit NH3 result as a calculated value?
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15-08-2018, 01:41 PM #52016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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pip895 Thanked / Liked this Post
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15-08-2018, 01:48 PM #6
More info on ammonia including a calculator chart for acceptable total ammonia limits to not go above 0.020ppm free ammonia (nH3) are here Ammonia
At your pH and temp a total ammonia of 0.6 would give the max acceptable 0.020 free ammonia (NH3). So if your API kit is telling you total ammonia is under 0.25 then either the Seneye is overreading or your kit is not working properly.
I do tend to find my Seneye over reads a bit (I have a Hanna meter so can check it against that) but it's not THAT far out. Seneyes are most useful for trends rather than absolute values- I really like mine but would never use it in place of water testing.2016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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Manky Sanke, Scamp Thanked / Liked this Post
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15-08-2018, 02:22 PM #7
Sorry Feline... you're absolutely right. I'm actually using an NT labs kit (not sure why I wrote API... duh) and the bottles are labeled NH3 (1, 2 & 3), which is why I wrote that... but I appreciate they measure total ammonia.
What confuses me is that if I use the temperature and pH levels from the Seneye and the 'worst case' result from the NT labs kit (0.25ppm total ammonia) then the 'free ammonia' is calculated as 0.010325ppm, whereas the Seneye free ammonia is being reported as 0.066ppm or thereabouts... that seems a huge difference.
I don't have another thermometer, so I have to accept the Seneye's temperature reading, but the NT kit suggests the pH is around 8 and I also have an Apera pH tester that indicates a similar pH, so I'm relatively confident that's reasonably accurate.
If my free ammonia is indeed 0.066ppm, then surely my fish are doomed? But the NT kit tells me everything is fine.... I'm much more inclined, as you say, to believe the NT kit but surely the Seneye can't be that innaccurate? Or am I being obtuse and missing the point somewhere?
I've just been looking at the Hanna HI-700 meter... very tempted. Would you recommend one?Last edited by fatgus; 15-08-2018 at 02:24 PM.
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15-08-2018, 09:47 PM #8
Latest NT Labs tests...
Total ammonia... between zero and 0.2 (very yellow, no hint of green)
NO2... between 0 and 0.25 (very pale, probably towards the low end)
NO3... between 0 and 2.5 (again, pretty pale)
Current Seneye readings...
Temp... 19.7°C
pH... 8.3
NH3 (free ammonia)... 0.07ppm
NH4... 14.41
pH on the Apera is 8.4
Using the online calculator, a total ammonia of 0.2 (worst case), 19.7°C and pH of 8.3 gives a free ammonia of 0.014ppm... one fifth of the measurement reported by the Seneye...
Think I'll leave the new slide for another 24 hours then try that...
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RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
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17-08-2018, 10:00 AM #9
Just changed the slide and the seneye is now giving a reading of 0.012ppm. The calculator gives a total ammonia of around 0.3, which is much closer to the NT test kit result. A bit concerning that the readings could be so different from one slide to the next. I just hope it's the first slide that's defective, not the second...
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RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
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10-03-2021, 11:50 AM #10
Dragging up old thread - Did you have any more theories on this, by say doing a manual adjustment on the seneye to alter the readings, I think I will use mine for trends rather than believe the figures, my weekly water test still shows yellow/zero for ammonia
Aquaforte Dm vario 20000 pumps
Still for sale. Postage available for cost Sent from my SM-S901B using Tapatalk