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Thread: Timber planks

  1. #1

    Timber planks

    Hi

    i am going to build a 3.6 x 2.1x 1.45m dp pond finishing 550mm above ground. This is built by using a 150 x 50 planks screwed to 100 x100 posts. All timber is treated and using ss screws.
    base will be conc with a bottom drain. Backfill will be concrete and type 1 hardcore

    12 mm insulation on the inside. Can. I have it fibreglassed?

    advice please.



  2. #2
    Member Rank = Tosai Point's Avatar
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    I'm about as far away from being an expert as possible but my thoughts are that as soon as you put wood, even treated wood, below ground it will fail at some point. Oak would last longer but will still fail eventually. Then you'll have to dismantle the pond and do it all again. Imho you'd probably be better off laying a concrete foundation and building a blockwork wall for anything below ground. Then once out of the ground build the wooden framework on top of it, or carry on with the blockwork to full height. You could always clad the outside face above ground with wood if that's the finish you want. Internally I can't see any problem with fibreglassing it.

    I'd also suggest much thicker insulation than 12mm, that's not thick enough to make any difference. I'd be looking at an absolute minimum of 50mm and would probably use 90mm insulation which would fit in the gap between 4" posts nicely.

    I'm sure someone with more experience and knowledge will be along to offer advice mate.

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  4. #3

    Timber planks

    Thanks for the reply.

    I understand about the risk with wood, but this timber is specially treated , garanteed etc. But below ground it will not really be in contact with the soil. The backfill should provide the real support.

    my concerns are more to do with the use of the fibre glass. Will the flexibility of the upper timber be a problem?

  5. #4
    Member Rank = Tosai Point's Avatar
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    Backfill will help but it won't completely stop moisture from getting to the wood. You might also want to check the max height of the water table where you are to make sure it won't be submerged.

    With enough vertical supports I can't see the fibreglass being a problem.. someone else will need to advise on the right distance between vertical joists though mate.. afraid I just don't know. I suspect the distance will depend on the timber planks you use and how flexible they are. The few wooden builds I've seen have mostly used marine ply instead of planks.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Big nige's Avatar
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    With regards to timber framing even if you concrete behind it moisture will go through the concrete and timber will suffer from wet rot regardless of how it's treated.
    If you don't want to build a block pond think about a cast reinforced concrete one maybe

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    Last edited by Big nige; 19-07-2021 at 09:33 PM.

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  8. #6
    As others have said you need to rethink your materials, wood will eventually rot. What you will have saved on the block build you will have wasted on the fibreglass when it cracks further down the line. Do it once, do it right comes to mind.

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  10. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Even sleepers rot and fail . . Dtf is doing a sleeper pond but has done a few blocks to keep the sleepers off the ground

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    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

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  12. #8
    Any of you lot seen the Carl and Alex vid on You tube? They built a sleeper pond earlier this year and it recently sprung a leak. They found that the sleepers had active woodworm, which on exiting the timber, had munched through the liner

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  14. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by g mac View Post
    Any of you lot seen the Carl and Alex vid on You tube? They built a sleeper pond earlier this year and it recently sprung a leak. They found that the sleepers had active woodworm, which on exiting the timber, had munched through the liner
    Yes, I did see that, and then they went and did the same build again!!!

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  16. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalNorwich View Post
    Yes, I did see that, and then they went and did the same build again!!!
    The brick worm has been extinct for a few years now so that's one worry I don't have now

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    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

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  18. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by g mac View Post
    Any of you lot seen the Carl and Alex vid on You tube? They built a sleeper pond earlier this year and it recently sprung a leak. They found that the sleepers had active woodworm, which on exiting the timber, had munched through the liner
    Having a timber pond myself this video scared the life out of me Timber planks never even thought about that before. I ordered some more Ron seal waterproof paint that night for the pond which is what I used previous years. Apparently it’s damp or rotten wood they like! Probably more of a reason not to build sleeper ponds directly on top of soil rather then use a concrete collar. Scary stuff though that alone puts me off ever building another sleeper pond if I’m honest. But that’s the first I ever heard of it though!


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  20. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by charco123 View Post
    Having a timber pond myself this video scared the life out of me Timber planks never even thought about that before. I ordered some more Ron seal waterproof paint that night for the pond which is what I used previous years. Apparently it’s damp or rotten wood they like! Probably more of a reason not to build sleeper ponds directly on top of soil rather then use a concrete collar. Scary stuff though that alone puts me off ever building another sleeper pond if I’m honest. But that’s the first I ever heard of it though!


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    I expect that the sleepers that they used were already infested. A close inspection prior to install would be a good plan.

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g mac View Post
    Any of you lot seen the Carl and Alex vid on You tube? They built a sleeper pond earlier this year and it recently sprung a leak. They found that the sleepers had active woodworm, which on exiting the timber, had munched through the liner
    thats the problem with modern 'eco friendly' tanalising...
    it used to have properly nasty insectacides in it, but seems now mainly just helps to prevent wet rot.

    i've always treated all external timber with 5 star...
    it only take a few minutes to apply with brush or pump sprayer as it goes on like water.
    but is more for protection from insect attack than rot prevention.

    that said, the sleepers could have come from somewhere that is prone to woodworm attack.
    and imported the infection....

    but keeping the wood up out of the ground and dry helps a lot...
    Last edited by davethefish1; 21-07-2021 at 09:37 AM.

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  23. #14
    Thankyou all for your comments, my main concern was the use of fibreglass.I have now spoken to some koi industry glasses who have said this, in its self should not be a problem.

    whilst I know very little about koi’s and their ponds I am a retired structural engineer and understand this issue with rot, worm and geotechnical issues. The soil where I live, is clayey sand with gravel, no water issues.

    provided I can fully compact the backfill to prevent settlement, the pond below ground. will be stable. Above ground the timber will be structurally adequate.

    i chose timber planks because they are a lot cheaper than railway sleeper or masonry. These planks are fully treated and guaranteed for 15 yrs. I will also apply all cut timber with further coats of protection.

    Worm in sleepers? They must have been original ones or some reclaimed timber. My railway friend, tell me that most sold railway sleeps are new timber and never seen a train!

    thankyou again for your help.

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  25. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Big nige's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but no timber is guaranteed for 15 years in underground usages and if that's what you are being told you are being misled
    Whilst I agree clayey sand with gravel, has excellent drainage properties the fact remains water passing through will still be drawn into the timbers and be unable to dry out as it has no airflow being underground but your cash, your choice

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    Last edited by Big nige; 21-07-2021 at 08:44 PM.

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  27. #16
    ,ref last comment

    “Pressure treated with green Wolmanit CX-10 wood preservative which protects against wood destroying Fungi and insects, for both internal and external structural timbers, with or without ground and water contact. This softwood product is kiln-dried, C16 graded and comes planed all round with all of the edges”

  28. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Big nige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindosbay View Post
    ,ref last comment

    “Pressure treated with green Wolmanit CX-10 wood preservative which protects against wood destroying Fungi and insects, for both internal and external structural timbers, with or without ground and water contact. This softwood product is kiln-dried, C16 graded and comes planed all round with all of the edges”
    All locations where air drying is accessable. Not underground and being a structural engineer you would be aware C24 is the go-to grade now with LABC for load bearing timbers, why would you choose weaker C16

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    Last edited by Big nige; 21-07-2021 at 09:04 PM.

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  30. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big nige View Post
    I'm sorry but no timber is guaranteed for 15 years in underground usages and if that's what you are being told you are being misled
    Whilst I agree clayey sand with gravel, has excellent drainage properties the fact remains water passing through will still be drawn into the timbers and be unable to dry out as it has no airflow being underground but your cash, your choice

    Sent from my moto e6 play using Tapatalk
    ain't that the truth
    i hammered some tanalised CLS stakes in the ground for my pond netting to anchor on 2 years ago.

    when i dug out for my new pond this year, they were completely rotten below ground, you could crumble them to dust in your hands.
    the bit sticking out of the ground was fine and solid...

    one of the reasons i put in a concrete collar to lift my sleepers out of the ground with the new build....

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  32. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by g mac View Post
    I expect that the sleepers that they used were already infested. A close inspection prior to install would be a good plan.
    Yeah I think so too. Apparently it’s a bettle that lays eggs and then they turn into little worm things with teeth things the little barstards!!! But they take a while to hatch apparently so I think the timber must of been already infested. As there pond had to be less than 5 months old. Glad I see the video though il keep a eye out for sure and keep to waiting it yearly like I already have done !!!


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  33. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Big nige View Post
    All locations where air drying is accessable. Not underground and being a structural engineer you would be aware C24 is the go-to grade now with LABC for load bearing timbers, why would you choose weaker C16

    Sent from my moto e6 play using Tapatalk
    Thanks for this, but c16 grade is sufficient strength for this purpose. C24 would be expensive and Ott.in the ground the water pressure will be supported by the backfill, which will be concrete and compacted type1 ( upper levels).durabilty is the issue here and reason for my tread.

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