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Thread: Pauls Pond

  1. #1
    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Pauls Pond

    Hi All,
    First post in this forum after reading lots, I`m about the start my pond project and just wanted to run a few things by the experts, make sure I`m on the right lines, heres a few details:

    Pond internal dimensions – 4m x 2m x 1.2 deep
    Infinity window to one long side – external viewing dimensions 1.5 x 0.5
    700mm above ground built in blockwork on fat edge
    Stocked with 5 or 6, 20cm koi

    Build method – dig and fill 150mm footing with rebar rods, dig area inside footing and channel for 110mm bottom drain and return(s). “Dish” the internal area to lowest part at bottom drain. Build blockwork 700mm above ground.

    Filtration – 110mm bottom drain -> Eazypod -> pump -> UV -> mid water return

    First question is around the window, I`m thinking of laying the first course of block underneath the window to protrude internally by about 50mm, this will provide a “shelf” for the window to sit on then the second course run flush. Giving me a 100mm bottom lip to attach the glass (glass will be 200mm wider and 100mm deeper than opening). Then pva the blockwork where the glass will be in contact with it and then bond the glass to the blocks using this stuff: https://www.idealsealants.com/ideals...ive-300ml-p141.
    Once the sealant / adhesive has cured, fix bent straps https://www.screwfix.com/p/sabrefix-...m-5-pack/85398 to either side of the window securing it internally (for when the football hits it, I know there will be a ton of water holding it against the block work but for peace of mind and while its empty). Then bond liner to window using multiple beads of the same adhesive/sealant. Think this will work?

    pond window pic.PNG

    Also I`ve seen raised ponds with some sort of stainless and glass upstand fitted to the top, like the one in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD6J6hTvv2U&t=197s I thought it may help deter the herons in my area, any ideas where to buy these?

    I` sure I`ll have loads more questions and I`ll post pics as I progress, thanks in advance!



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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai AlanF's Avatar
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    Looks good. I would only seat the window on 50 mm lip, waste of glass to go more. Ideal Auto-Marine is the perfect choice of sealant. I built the block walls and just disc cut the rebate, painted it and sealed the window with 3-4 tubes of sealant. You need to have help lifting into position as the glass at 25mm thick weighs a lot! I also put two strips of rubber on the bottom lip to hold a gap while the seal sets, then removed and sealed later. Once it has fully cured it wont be going anywhere!!

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    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion dbs's Avatar
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    Sounding like a good build, I look forward to seeing the progress Pauls Pond

    I can't comment on the glass as still trying to suss out my own Pauls Pond

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip on the glass overhang Alan, Read through your pond build. Great job!

    I`m torn between:

    a) Make foundation for the blockwork thats going to be above ground level to sit on and leave the "inside" as mud and fit a liner (quicker and cheaper option and easier to form a concave to the BD,)

    b) Pour a slab and build up in blockwork from the bottom of pond then fiberglass (more expensive, take longer, look better) This seems to be the preferred option but other than a minor asthetics I can`t see much benefit

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    ... and we`re off.

    Had a spare weekend so dug the trenches for the concrete collar. It then struck me that the large tree stump right next to the pond would probably disturb the collar when I tried to remove it so really need to do that first.
    stump.jpg

    Took all of Saturday plus help from a friend to get the stump unrooted. Now needs chopping up and removing.

    footing.jpg

    Footing poured,
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I personally would not try to glue the liner to the window, I would do it the other way round.
    If you think about it, a seal that’s under compression from tonnes of water pressing a solid glass window against it is going to be less likely to leak than one with a flexible liner pressed against it by the very small surface area of the contact.

    If you did it that way round you could just cut a rebate into the blocks around the window (if you’re not using insulation on the walls). Or if you are using insulation then attach a ‘frame’ in wooden battens for the window to fit into on the inside of the window opening allowing a 50mm or more window overlap on all sides. You can then cut and glue the liner into the frame (just to stick it in place not as part of a seal against water) and when that is set glue the window to the liner, and seal around it. There are threads where that has been done in the pond build section.

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice Feline, The "liner stuck to glass" or "liner trapped in window" appear to be the 2 main methods, I can see positives and negatives in each system.

    A couple of things concern me about trapping the liner between the block work and the window:

    - it will be hard not to wrinkle the liner and get a solid bond
    - The window is only held in place by the bonding to the liner, rather than bonding to the blockwork, I appreciate there will be tonnes of water pushing it out but the majority of that force will be acting downwards due to gravity, and at the top of an infinitty window there will be even less. I can foresee one of the kids leaning on it or booting the football at it, which is why I wanted some mechanical fixing as well.

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob320 View Post
    Thanks for the advice Feline, The "liner stuck to glass" or "liner trapped in window" appear to be the 2 main methods, I can see positives and negatives in each system.

    A couple of things concern me about trapping the liner between the block work and the window:

    - it will be hard not to wrinkle the liner and get a solid bond
    - The window is only held in place by the bonding to the liner, rather than bonding to the blockwork, I appreciate there will be tonnes of water pushing it out but the majority of that force will be acting downwards due to gravity, and at the top of an infinitty window there will be even less. I can foresee one of the kids leaning on it or booting the football at it, which is why I wanted some mechanical fixing as well.
    I think it would only ever be an issue when the pond is empty- the forces pushing out on the window once full are enormous- even at the top of the window. The top of the window is being forced outwards by virtue of being strong and flat and attached to the rest of the window.

    If you’ve ever tried to get wrinkles out of the floor of a paddling pool with just a couple of inches of water in, you gain some appreciation for just how heavy water is. A football or even an entire child hitting or leaning on the window once full would be an insignificant force so long as the glass is strong enough not to crack or shatter (which if heat soaked, laminated and hardened it should be).

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Point taken. Am confused now, why do the companies that sell the glass for a living recommend sticking the liner to the glass rather than squashing in between?https://aurello.co.uk/product/pond-window-glass/

    Also if we are cutting rebates in the block work surely we are reducing the amount of block that is holding the enormous force of the water back by the depth of the rebate. That's why they are laid fat side down in the first place.

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    You don’t have to rebate the block if you don’t want to. You can use a wooden frame attached on the inside of the blocks instead, leaving room inside it for the overlap. Some people do this using timber batons that are the same thickness as the insulation material they then use to line the walls. You then leave the bit of block that will be against the glass unimsulated.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    here's a couple of very thorough threads from Trace for window fitting with or without a liner.

    https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-diy-tip...ng-window.html

    https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-diy-tip...ighlight=ms290

    PU sealant is great for bonding everything, including being better for glass to wall,
    as it sets all the way through. but not the best for liner to glass or itself.

    MS polymer sealants are better for bonding liner to glass if you go the liner on glass route. like idealseal MS290

    also don't use pva anywhere it could get wet in the future like outside. as it just turns back to a soluble state when it gets wet.
    if you need to seal brickwork outside use a synthetic polymer exterior sealant like SBR but that won't be neccessary with PU sealant for the window it sticks like .... to a blanket

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/BAL-Bond-SB...7ENW8MRG9KJPVT

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    Hi there. Looks like a nice pond. My only observation and from my own experience and others would be with a pond of around 9.600 litres I would advise not to go with an eazypod as this filtration system may struggle to cope. If you can over filtrate ........ perhaps a nexus?

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    here's a couple of very thorough threads from Trace for window fitting with or without a liner.

    https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-diy-tip...ng-window.html

    https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-diy-tip...ighlight=ms290

    PU sealant is great for bonding everything, including being better for glass to wall,
    as it sets all the way through. but not the best for liner to glass or itself.

    MS polymer sealants are better for bonding liner to glass if you go the liner on glass route. like idealseal MS290

    also don't use pva anywhere it could get wet in the future like outside. as it just turns back to a soluble state when it gets wet.
    if you need to seal brickwork outside use a synthetic polymer exterior sealant like SBR but that won't be neccessary with PU sealant for the window it sticks like .... to a blanket

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/BAL-Bond-SB...7ENW8MRG9KJPVT
    Great stuff, many thanks this is just what I needed!

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imc28 View Post
    Hi there. Looks like a nice pond. My only observation and from my own experience and others would be with a pond of around 9.600 litres I would advise not to go with an eazypod as this filtration system may struggle to cope. If you can over filtrate ........ perhaps a nexus?
    based on what I`m reading on the forums I am in agreement. I do like the EasyPod air setup, compact and easy to clean and relatively inexpensive (compared to some other filters!)

    I`m going round in circles trying to select a filter system I`ve a couple of trils of thought:

    1. Stick with the eazypod and have fewer / smaller fish (would be a shame), as the fish grow either sell them on or upgrade to an RDF (I`m amazed at how well an eazypod, and all filters, retain their 2nd hand value).

    2. Get a Nexus - I`m really put off by the size of these things, the filter is going in the shed next to the pond, this wouldn`t even get through the door.

    3. Get an RDF, Love the way they auto clean and are reasonably compact, don`t like the cost and think these are going to be quite loud. (Are they?) not sure that the neighbours would like the constants humming and pressure washing. Don`t like all the moving parts in a drum, too much to go wrong. Are they reliable?

    I`ve considered the following filters
    - EA Easypod air - Ł550 - all in one solution, probably not up to the job, needs manual clean but is pretty easy to do.
    - Draco combi minima - Ł1200 - all in one solution - is it twice as good as the easypod?
    - Draco solum 16 - Ł1300 - plus needs an additional bio @ Ł500 (is this just an expensive plastic box?) total Ł1800 - more than I wanted to pay
    - Filtreau HF30 - Ł1300 - also needs a Ł500 bio
    - QK25 - Ł1400 - also needs a bio. I live near Queni Koi - got some great fish, seem a bit expensive

    What would you go for?

  24. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Jampot's Avatar
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    Easypod or Draco Minima will be seriously inadequate for 9600 litres.

    A nexus 200 is 'smaller / narrower' on it's side for getting it through the shed door and not too heavy to wrangle with in that orientation - I took mine out recently like that and I'm over 70 Plenty available s/h and nothing much to go wrong except the plastic tees and unions for the air pipes become brittle with age - easily replaced.

    It isn't unduly noisy in operation either, particularly if you can land one with a lid.

    Jim
    I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish I kee........

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    For those of you who enjoy a picture of a hole in the ground here`s where I`m at, about half way.

    half dug.jpg

    and here is full skip number 1, this has now been taken away and new skip 2 is sat on the drive ready for another weekends digging

    skip.jpg

    How do you rotate the pictures?

  27. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Tosai MikeS's Avatar
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    I’ve been outta the game some years and am contemplating getting back in.

    Previously l had a variant on the Richdonkoi “ Blockbuilt Settlement Filter “, 3m settlement chamber followed by fluidized k1 and Japmat, fantastic water with that filter. I have mountains of k1 and Japmat in the garage and don’t want it to go to waste. I too have read about the drums and Combidrums, l reckon they’re expensive and some are noisey.

    For what it’s worth l reckon l’m gonna buy one of the KockneyKoi 10.000 Multibays without media and fill my boots with all the k1 and JapMat l’ve got converting it to static/fluidized k1 and japmat. Have always had success with k1 and japmat, love farting about and converting Multibays for it.

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    Member Rank = Tosai bob320's Avatar
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    Think I`ll probably go for a Draco Solum 16 with standard Bio, unless anyone is selling an RDF? Wheres the best place to get this from? or would you condone mixing and matching RDF and Bio by manufacturer, for example I like the look of the QK25 and the price of the draco bio, is this just asking for trouble?

    Anyway, another weekends digging done and we`re down to depth, I`ve tried to make the bottom of the pond slope towards the BD, its 550mm at the sides to about 650mm in the middle (roughly). I dug the channel out the side of the pond and up into the shed which is where the filters will be.

    Not impressed with JBR, I bought an aerated bottom drain, 2x 3m 110m pressure pipes, 2x 3m 1" airpipe, swept bend and some other bits on Friday 2nd for Ł250, They said delivery would be by Tuesday 6th. I had received nothing by Thursday 8th so rang them and they said it was sat outside waiting to ship and should be with me the following day. Friday the 9th I got a delivery of 2x 110mm pipes only, Still waiting for the other parts. Hope I haven`t lost my money here. Fingers crossed should have something this week as its holding up the job.

    Here`s some more sideways pictures of the hole in the ground

    finsihed dig.jpg

    pipe in shed.jpg

  29. #19
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hi Bob, looks a nice neat hole you have dug there coming on well.

    I have the Solum 25 for nearly 3 yrs only problem with it was the float level switch broke but got a replacement ok, I made my own from pressure pipe and cheap float switch from Ebay so now have 2 spare ones.
    Can recommend "Five acre pond supplies" the best prices I have found and fast delivery they are near Chesterfield.

    For a bio you could use a small ibc the I think 60 gal ones some use the 1000 ltr ones.
    John

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Hi Bob. I have the solum 16 drum from draco. It's a good drum but it's max Flo rate is probably closer to 12k lph, not 16 as stated. So should be ok for your pond.

    The only issue I've had is the float switch seems too short for a gravity set up. I've had to lower it quite a bit to get the float 5mm under the running water level in the clean side of the drum. And that's with the water level being right up to the lip of the waste chute in the dirty side.

    During the summer it did end up cleaning ever 2 - 3 minutes, which used up alot of extra water for me. I eventually gave the mesh a pressure wash and that sorted it.

    However if I didnt have the draco drum, I would be tempted by a queni koi drum or the filtreau 30. If you can get an amalgam installed in the drum, that's ideal as you wont then need to muck about installing one inline.

    I have an amalgam in my draco but have it sitting loose (diagonally) in the dirty side of the drum as it's not big enough to accommodate it in my set up.


    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

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