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  1. #1
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Ken's Pond Build

    Hi,

    Thought I'd set up a new thread as the title of the last one wasn't accurate as the plans have changed.

    I've had a pond for about 20 years that currently has one Koi and 13 goldfish of mixed varieties. It had granite walls and was lined. The volume was around 1,800l and was 2 feet at its deepest point. It has developed a leak in the last year so we needed to do something about it.

    After some deliberation, we've decided to go with a completely new build of 2.5m x 4m x 1.5m with a raised pond at the rear of 2.5m x 1m x 0.6m to provide a water fall and possible anoxic filter.

    We got a quote and gave a builder the go ahead only to be told that we need to wait 4-5 weeks before they can start. Rather than sit on my hands, I've decided that we go ahead and take away the old pond and maybe hire a digger and operator to dig the hole. That will minimise any time lost. The plan is that when the builder becomes available, they'll only have to lay the slab, do the brickwork and render. I'll look after the pipework and window myself.

    The old pond was made up of a lot of granite and I mean a lot. This is it before. It's ok as a water feature, but not particularly functional as a fish pond and has looked pretty crap in recent years.

    IMG_0370.jpg

    And this is after 6 days. I have to admit most of it was done by my 17 year old son. It's hard work and more robustly built than I thought. Hopefully we'll get it fully removed by mid-week. The tricky bit will be the concrete base in the upper part the the concrete foundation for the brickwork. I removed the liner and installed a concrete base in the upper part about 3 years ago as it was also leaking badly.

    IMG_0381.jpgIMG_0382.jpg

    Below are the SketchUp drawings for the new pond. The waterfall is more my wife's idea, but I concerns that it may impact the flow towards the skimmer. However a low fall on the waterfall and a second return on the far wall opposite the skimmer may help this.

    Pond4.jpgPond3.jpg

    I'm opting for one bottom drain (likely a Spindrifter) with pressure pipe that would come up behind the shed where the filter pit is. The plan was that the filter pit would be deep enough to allow me gravity feed a Nexus 320. I need to check the levels, but guessing I'd have to dig down about 30cm which isn't too bad.

    However, I've now leaning more towards anoxic in the upper part and adding a Filtreau 20 Drum filter for mechanical filtration. The white box in the drawing is the location of an existing garden shed. It's a brick build with a concrete floor. I've checked the levels and there is enough room for me to install a Filtreau 20 in there at a level to be gravity fed. It would mean having a 90 degree angle to bring the bottom drain pipe up behind the shed and then a second 90 degree bend to bring it through the back of the shed and into the filter. The shed will be better for housing the filter as there is already power in there and will also shield the equipment from the weather. The shed is about 2m x 2.5m and has plenty of room for a Filtreau 20 and the associated piping. It will also save me a bit not having to build the filter pit (every little helps).

    The Filtreau's outlet will be pump fed back to the upper pond with a t-junction that will also feed a return on the side opposite the skimmer. I won't need a separate UVC as there is one built into the Filtreau. I still need to sort out the logistics of the pipework and required ball valves.

    I'm not sure on fibreglassing and may paint. I'll see how the budget is towards the end and if I can get someone in the Dublin area to do it for a reasonable price. Ponds of this nature are not common and any of the fibreglass companies I've seen specialise in roofs and don't mention ponds.

    Questions:

    • Would two 90 degree bends in the bottom drain pipe cause a problem? Although looking at the Filtreau inlets, there would need to be a second 90 degree bend to the inlet which is on the front. Feeding into the shed just means the pipework would be a meter or so longer.
    • I'd like to keep the skimmer in the area behind the shed to hide the pipework - does the flow for the waterfall make it less useful? I was hoping a second return on the opposite wall may help.
    • The Filtreau has 2 x 4 inch inlets. Is it ok to connect both the bottom drain and skimmer to it? It will mean two large holes in the wall of the shed, but it's pretty much out of sight so not an issue. The other option is a separate circuit for the Skimmer, but would mean a second pump and one less hole in the shed wall.


    Thanks in advance and will keep you posted of progress over the next couple of months.



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  3. #2
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Quick question. I'm looking at the Filtreau 20 RDF. It has one 4"/110mm outlet. I presume I can reduce that to 2". It will be gravity fed so will have a pump on the outlet. Does it make sense to split the single outlet to two and return to an upper pond for an anoxic filter and then to the opposite side of the pond? I could do the split in the shed close to the pump and and add ball valves to balance. Alternative is to have the skimmer on a separate circuit returning to the far side of the pond although that would require another pump.

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  5. #3
    I am following what you are doing as I plan my upgrade next year. 1 thing you did not mention is any returns as jets. By using 50mm pipe 200mm below the water level and at an angle they create a gentle vortex which I believe the fish enjoy and any surface waste gets pushed towards the skimmer.

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  7. #4
    Hi Tropheus,
    I have a skimmer and a bottom drain feeding my Filtreau rdf. You will need to make sure you have ball valves on both lines so that you can balance the flow in from each.
    How are you intending to feed the wash pump?
    If you are taking water from the clean side of the drum filter then you will need a rubber 4 inch T on the outlet with one part feeding your jet wash pump and one part feeding your pond return pump.
    Both ends will then need to be reduced down to fit the pipes feeding the respective pumps.
    If you are feeding the wash pump from your mains water you will need a mains fed header tank with an auto top up system.
    I hope that makes sense?
    Cheers
    Ady


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  9. #5
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adyprice View Post
    Hi Tropheus,
    I have a skimmer and a bottom drain feeding my Filtreau rdf. You will need to make sure you have ball valves on both lines so that you can balance the flow in from each.
    How are you intending to feed the wash pump?
    If you are taking water from the clean side of the drum filter then you will need a rubber 4 inch T on the outlet with one part feeding your jet wash pump and one part feeding your pond return pump.
    Both ends will then need to be reduced down to fit the pipes feeding the respective pumps.
    If you are feeding the wash pump from your mains water you will need a mains fed header tank with an auto top up system.
    I hope that makes sense?
    Cheers
    Ady


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks Ady. Feeding the wash pump from the clean side of the filter sounds easier. Have you any pictures of how that looks?

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  11. #6
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the coyman View Post
    I am following what you are doing as I plan my upgrade next year. 1 thing you did not mention is any returns as jets. By using 50mm pipe 200mm below the water level and at an angle they create a gentle vortex which I believe the fish enjoy and any surface waste gets pushed towards the skimmer.
    I was just planning on two returns. One via the anoxic filter and one on the wall of the pond opposite the skimmer. I'll have to take a look at the set up of jets.

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  13. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tropheus View Post
    Thanks Ady. Feeding the wash pump from the clean side of the filter sounds easier. Have you any pictures of how that looks?
    Hi mine is a hi flow 30 so has two outlets see bottom left.


    The 20 would look something like this:

    Cheers
    Ady


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  15. #8
    Have you considered an overflow pipe and also a water top up unit as well.

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  17. #9
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the coyman View Post
    Have you considered an overflow pipe and also a water top up unit as well.
    Not as yet. The skimmer may be the best place on my set up as it will be close to a drain. Haven't considered a top up. Any suggestions?

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  19. #10
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Ok, we have a digger coming in next week and I'm under pressure to have the design pretty much complete. The pipework has me lying awake at night. I want to get the digger guy to dig the trenches for pipework if possible to avoid any back breaking work.

    I have opted to put the drum filter in a shed next to the pond. It's far enough below the waterline for a drum to operate on gravity. The shed is not to scale in the drawing so there is plenty of room in there.

    My problem is returns. Where should I put them? At the moment, I have one to the Anoxic filter/waterfall which I'm presuming isn't enough. I'm guessing I need another 2?

    Where should they go and how do I recess them into the blocks to hide the pipework? I'll be using hollow blocks and rebar backfilled with concrete.

    Do I need more than one pump or can I have a manifold off one pump with ball valves in the shed? The rear wall of the shed will look like swiss cheese at this rate.

    Thanks in advance.

    Pond5.jpg

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  21. #11
    Member Rank = Nisai Jampot's Avatar
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    I would go for 2 pumps - one for the anoxic and one for the returns.

    One return in the wall adjacent to the shed and another just round the corner pointing across the window. A third one woyuld be beneficial if you could get it to the other side opposite the shed to promote good circulation but perhaps that may be difficult.

    At 1.5m depth, consider putting them at different levels with valves so the upper one can be isolated in winter.

    Jim
    I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish I kee........

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  23. #12
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    First attempt at a plumbing schematic below. Feedback welcome as I'm sure I've made some rookie errors.

    I'm opting for two pumps as I'm not sure one would cope. One will take the output from the RDF and return it via a manifold to the three returns. Each return will have a ball valve for balancing.

    I plan to take the skimmer feed into the shed and then return it via pump to the anoxic filter. I'll take it into the shed and out again as I want to keep all the electrics indoors.

    I'll use the gap between the pond wall and the ground to run the pipework and then backfill with clay. I plan to run the returns into the hollow blocks underground and then up the center of the blocks. Blocks will be backfilled with concrete.

    I will also add a waste pipe with ball valve at the base of the anoxic filter for flushing. I'll use hose to get it to the drain as I won't be doing it that often. There will be a drain behind the shed.

    I have yet to add the flush pump for the RDF and I presume there will be a waste to a drain also for the RDF.

    Questions:
    • Is standard 2" pipe ok for the returns?
    • What pumps are recommended?
    • Is there a need for non-return valves after the pumps?

    Pond6.jpg

  24. #13
    Member Rank = Nisai Jampot's Avatar
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    If the chosen pumps are of the type which can be run submersible only the plug into the mains socket needs to be in the shed. I hesitate to recommend any particular brand but have bought into the idea of larger but adjustable pumps (having just bought 2 x 20000lph EA varipumps!)

    If the pumps have 2" couplings then by all means use 2" pipe. Not a lot of point if the pumps only have 1.5" couplings. To avoid additional friction loss, try to run to swept bends rather than elbows if budget allows.

    It would simplify matters greatly if you feed the skimmer line to the returns via a pump adjacent to the skimmer and the bd via the drum to the anoxic, which also keeps any muck out of the anoxic chamber.

    Use ball valves either side of the pumps so they can be removed for maintenance with minimal water loss. I don't think they need to be non- return.

    No UV?

    Jim
    I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish I kee........

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  26. #14
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Thanks Jim I'll give that some thought. BTW, there's a 40watt Amalgam UV built into the RDF so not on the diagram.

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    Member Rank = Nisai Jampot's Avatar
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    there's a 40watt Amalgam UV built into the RDF
    Ahh, of course. I'm in the process of replacing a nexus with a drum which doesn't have an amalgam UV so will re-use the original TMC 55 watt unit.

    Another point which occured to me after posting - there is merit in using identical pumps. If the pump on the drum breaks down it's relatively simple to swap the one off the skimmer (no plumbing to alter) while seeking repair or replacement. It happened to me with the original Sequence pumps I fitted.

    Jim
    I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish, I keep water. I don't keep fish I kee........

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  30. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tropheus View Post
    Thanks Jim I'll give that some thought. BTW, there's a 40watt Amalgam UV built into the RDF so not on the diagram.
    I have just changed all my returns from
    1 1/2 inch to 2 inch pipe work. For more flow.
    Bringing this up. As in my opinion. 2 inch is better. Gives you more scope. As jim says
    Ball valve everything before and after.
    I have just added a pump the same as Jim's
    But a 30000lph. I wanted a 20000lph vario. the same. They only had that left. So hey ho.
    But great pumps. You can control the flow with out touching your ball valves.
    Good luck with the build mate
    Fred

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  31. #17
    In the drawing you have the bottom drain entering the filtreau 20 RDF and then returning to the pond without going through the Anoxic pond. That would mean the bulk of the water is not getting any biological treatment. Best to run all water to the anoxic pond and from there distribute the water through a waterfall and return jets.

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  33. #18
    Why not fit a submersible pond in the top part of the Anoxic pond to push water to the jets and let the waterfall just spill over. It would mean 1 pump to push the water from the exit of the RDF to the bottom of the Anoxic pond and 1 submersible pump in the top of the Anoxic pond.

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  35. #19
    Pipe Size (inch) Maximum Flow (gal/min) Velocity (ft/s)
    2 1/2 75 5.0
    3 130 5.6
    4 260 6.6
    6 800 8.9
    As can be seen here flow rates are not simply 2 X 1" is the same as 1 X 2". A 3" increases 100% when going to 4" so with that in mind you can set up a return from the RDF into the bottom of the Anoxic pond and set up a spread of pipes around the bottom to have the water flow evenly into the bottom. Then it can gently flood the pond soaking through the Anoxic pots and at the top you can have a protective liner and pots containing water plants and a submersible pump to do the return jets around the main pond.

  36. #20
    Member Rank = Nisai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Thanks, that may be the way to go. I was trying to keep all the electrics inside the shed for convenience more than anything, but that may not make sense and over complicate things.

    I could have the return on the shed side on the same feed as the anoxic. Ok, it wouldn't be going through the anoxic, but it would be only one return. I could then have the two on the far side feeding from the anoxic filter. It would save on pipework.

    So what size pipes would I use to feed the anoxic filter? 2" all round? How would I connect the skimmer? There is a second inlet on the RDF, but only one outlet.

 

 
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