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Thread: Pond 2.0

  1. #41
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Just found this interesting calculator for calculating pipe head loss (for piping itself): Flow-and-Headloss-Calculator_ep_60-1.html
    Yes, I used that when I did my pond but soon realised that the Bottom drain is 4 inch because that's what the drum and bottom drains come in and the returns are 2 inch because that's what the pump, UVC and Heater are, so I just went with that
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  3. #42
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    I saw steel fibres and plastics whilst researching. The general consensus was to avoid fibres unless it's pre-mixed in a pour so you get a consistent mix rather than per-mixer load variations.
    I could look at them again but I was concerned that fibres don't strengthen, rather reduce cracking etc. Concrete being strong under compression, rebar mesh is used for tension/tensile support and the fibres support in preventing cracking.

    "Concrete which contains fibrous additives in order to increase its structural composition. Fibers can be of various materials (synthetic fibers, steel fibers, glass fibers and natural fibers) which are randomly distributed and oriented throughout the material. Fibers do not increase strenght of concrete (might even decrease it in some cases) but help to avoid cracing and water bleeding. "

    Not sure how accurate that is but hey it's from a concrete pour company.
    The fibres method may not be the best solution in every case but for me with an organically shaped pond using 35N cement it has fitted the bill. And I am not tub thumping here since I am not an expert, just going on what I have read in available documents from the cement industry. And I can see that some of the points they make in the document seem sensible. Avoiding cracking and water bleeding is a good thing since small cracks are the ones that grow into bigger cracks later on. If I was building another organically shaped pond I would do the same again.

    When I mixed the cement etc on-site for my pond I used really accurate measurements of sand, cement, aggregate, plastic fibres and water for each mix to achieve maximum strength. I have too often in the past mixed and laid batches of concrete that were probably badly measured and ended up with different colours for each batch. Getting the mix spot on every time is the number one priority as the union between different mix strengths are where concrete slabs will fail.

    Kenny

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  5. #43
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    So this weekend has been simply doing a DIY shower however one thing that has been on my mind I've a spike of Nitrate in the little pond that has a large bio attached (it means ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate very rapidly) which has got me thinking about Anoxic filters simply because they move Ammonia straight to N2 with a bit of Nitrite and Nitrate. (they're off the food for the moment until the plants have time to catch up and I'll do a partial water change once some kit arrives)

    I don't want to trickle - I'm on a meter and the wife is a student accountant... so instead I was thinking how I could fit a 32cm narrow but deep and wide anoxic filter into the design. I'm considering putting the drum and bio filter into the garage. Then having the filter pit space design as an anoxic filter.

    The question is - how deep is the foundation of the door and the slab in the garage (the garage door opens against the old pond wall so it's close enough!). Then do I run a sump with a pump fed filter in the garage or.. as the water level should be ~60-70cm above ground level, do I run the bottom drain into the garage, sink a portion of garage slab down to level it and then put a drain in for the waste return following the same route down to the drain.

    This would mean both keeping the pond volume 11900l and adding a anoxic filter in the region of 70cm deep by 1m wide roughly 60cm long (420l) which could take (30x30x30 baskets) 2x3x2 giving 12 baskets. I could depend the filter slightly to give an extra layer 3x3x2=18 baskets.

    The garage would provide a easy access, easy water and electricals.

    Decisions decisions.

  6. #44
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Final diagram - a 10:1 scale diagram. Glad I did this, it showed (a) I had a bad measurement and (b) using the scale diagram to estimate the volume I get 9113 litres which is a bit lower than last estimate (2500 litres disappears in the wall volume) or 10,500 litres moving the walls out by 215mm.



    Looking at the scale it really makes sense putting the filter in the garage and not attempting to put the the filter in the corner.

    Now it's dark I've just measured the level of the garden from pond to drain. A drop of about 30cm over the length of the garden (probably about 10-13m). So that's approximately 1:38 drop.

    In other news the ten 1-ton bags are in the post. Annoyingly there is a shortage of wheelbarrows around Guildford.. unless you want to pay £100 then they're all out of stock.

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  8. #45
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Final diagram - a 10:1 scale diagram. Glad I did this, it showed (a) I had a bad measurement and (b) using the scale diagram to estimate the volume I get 9113 litres which is a bit lower than last estimate (2500 litres disappears in the wall volume) or 10,500 litres moving the walls out by 215mm.



    Looking at the scale it really makes sense putting the filter in the garage and not attempting to put the the filter in the corner.

    Now it's dark I've just measured the level of the garden from pond to drain. A drop of about 30cm over the length of the garden (probably about 10-13m). So that's approximately 1:38 drop.

    In other news the ten 1-ton bags are in the post. Annoyingly there is a shortage of wheelbarrows around Guildford.. unless you want to pay £100 then they're all out of stock.
    Too old school for me, AutoCAD or go home, no need to estimate volume Pond 2.0


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    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  10. #46
    I have a barrow you can borrow Nick, I’m just the other side of Fanborough or my lad can drop it to you next time he’s over that way.

    @Roy..not using Revitt? Tsk tsk
    Actually, I’m not, too old and can’t be arsed to learn it, been using AutoCAD for 30 years pretty much and my brain can’t work anything else apart from a bit of SketchUp. I think my CAD days are numbered thank goodness, bored senseless by work and need to retire!!!!


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  12. #47
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Ok... to keep you CAD-o-hollics happy - here's a sketchup:

    Screenshot 2020-05-21 at 17.53.57.jpg

    Interesting it shows a different area to my scaled-drawing calculations and very close to my existing calculations (doh!):
    * 270mm walkway to the back: 6.80 m2 = 11,900 litres
    * 400mm walkway to the back: 6.28 m2 = 10,990 litres

    With the space at the top now to become a Anoxic filter and the drum+bio in the garage.

    Edit: now with garage and filter area (I've not done 3D for the other parts of the garden etc):
    pond 2.0-2.jpg

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  14. #48
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    So I'm just attempting to fit the Anoxic filter (3x2x3 - shown as a block to one side) and the plumbing.

    I'm considering running the BD, skimmer and return lines under the pond. With a 4" U bend style airlift that takes the water from the surface of the filter - this allows a full 2m lift to be installed without having the entire anoxic filter to be 2m deep. I'm not sure if I want to come up through the base of the filter then to the surface - almost alike a skimmer based system. I can install a valve in the down pipe inside the anoxic filter. There will also be a side wall piping outlet for the pumps to drive the mid water returns for winter. The anoxic filter then acts like a sump for all of the outlets.

    I'm making the assumption that a 1m deep fibreglassed 90xi90 chamber will not need more than 100mm walls (blocks laid narrow side vertical).

    There's a 30 cm gap between the wall of the anoxic filter and the pond wall. This crawl space will have the pumps next to the skimmer along with any valves and the pipework.

    pond 2.0-3.jpg

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  16. #49
    Some quick observations.

    Cast pond slab under whole thing
    Lose crawl space (it’ll fill up with crap)
    Pond wall will be chamber wall (one less wall) chamber same depth as pond
    Move skimmer closer to drum
    Put air pump near drum and conceal air line to lifts
    Install 2 normal airlifts, you don’t have to use both but tricky to retrofit. They work fine at 5ft, you don’t “need” 6ft. See my video. (Can’t recall how deep your pond it without looking though)
    Put baskets on some milk crates if you don’t want them too deep, gives you scope to add more later also. You can tie some plastic coated stainless wire to baskets for lifting out later if necessary.
    Allow for cleaning bottom of chamber periodically.
    Ensure plenty of “supply” to chamber.
    Will your pointy bit get clean?


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  18. #50
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Some quick observations.
    Cast pond slab under whole thing
    Lose crawl space (it’ll fill up with crap)
    Pond wall will be chamber wall (one less wall) chamber same depth as pond
    I considered making the chamber and pond like this. Some thoughts;
    * Will a 215mm block wall hold that water IF the chamber is empty? That's a large amount of water behind that 90cm span.
    * I thought that attempting to fibre glass a 90x90x175 area would be difficult hence having it shallow.
    * I'd like to have the option of isolating the chamber
    * The return should have a dry pumped returns and shower - the outputs would be variable. Thinking here was that running an airlift would be chilling for the water during winter so switching to pumped would be less cooling.

    I could make the chamber narrower allowing pump/pipe space.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Move skimmer closer to drum
    I can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Put air pump near drum and conceal air line to lifts
    Install 2 normal airlifts, you don’t have to use both but tricky to retrofit. They work fine at 5ft, you don’t “need” 6ft. See my video. (Can’t recall how deep your pond it without looking though)
    What pump are you running? Initially I thought an XP-60 but an XP-80 seems a better bet (the BD is aerated). IIRC you were running a 60lpm with a BD and airlift?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Put baskets on some milk crates if you don’t want them too deep, gives you scope to add more later also. You can tie some plastic coated stainless wire to baskets for lifting out later if necessary.
    Damn good idea possible to put the baskets in the crates too - acts as the infrastructure.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Allow for cleaning bottom of chamber periodically. Ensure plenty of “supply” to chamber. Will your pointy bit get clean?
    I did think about a drain but that's additional pipework - a drop down pump and flex hose line back to the RDF may be better. The number of times I'd be cleaning this out would be maybe one or two times a year tops.. probably too much complication for something not being used that often.

    That was for the airlift - inlet one side, outlet airlift the other. I think I can probably design it a little better.

    I was thinking of running two 4" right through to the chamber as gravity fed - so ~15K per 4" with all the pipework. If I find the solum16 too small I can then look at a 25 or 70 micron mesh with the capacity already in place.

    Anyway - I'll have a think about how to take your comments onboard in the design.

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  20. #51
    They’re only observations Nick, we all do stuff differently
    I am using a hiblow 80 at the moment split between drain and airlift and getting plenty of air at both outlets.

    I think the wall would be fine, it’s only short, you could add in some brick mesh in every joint to be be safe, I’d probably do that on your corners anyway given the odd angles.
    A friendly builder on here should be able to advise.


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  22. #52
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    I considered making the chamber and pond like this. Some thoughts;
    * Will a 215mm block wall hold that water IF the chamber is empty? That's a large amount of water behind that 90cm span.
    * I thought that attempting to fibre glass a 90x90x175 area would be difficult hence having it shallow.
    * I'd like to have the option of isolating the chamber
    * The return should have a dry pumped returns and shower - the outputs would be variable. Thinking here was that running an airlift would be chilling for the water during winter so switching to pumped would be less cooling.

    I could make the chamber narrower allowing pump/pipe space.



    I can do that.



    What pump are you running? Initially I thought an XP-60 but an XP-80 seems a better bet (the BD is aerated). IIRC you were running a 60lpm with a BD and airlift?



    Damn good idea possible to put the baskets in the crates too - acts as the infrastructure.



    I did think about a drain but that's additional pipework - a drop down pump and flex hose line back to the RDF may be better. The number of times I'd be cleaning this out would be maybe one or two times a year tops.. probably too much complication for something not being used that often.

    That was for the airlift - inlet one side, outlet airlift the other. I think I can probably design it a little better.

    I was thinking of running two 4" right through to the chamber as gravity fed - so ~15K per 4" with all the pipework. If I find the solum16 too small I can then look at a 25 or 70 micron mesh with the capacity already in place.

    Anyway - I'll have a think about how to take your comments onboard in the design.
    The biggest mistake I made on my top pond nick. Was not putting a waste drain in my top pond.
    Admittedly it only gets cleaned once a year.
    But it's a ball ache all the same. Having to clean it out.
    With not been able to just flush it away.
    With the swill of a say garden hose.
    No where for the crap to go. I have to climb in there. And hump heavy plant baskets.
    And bail the crap out. Even with my pond vac. It ain't easy.
    Where if I had put a waste drain in. Hosepipe only job done in 5 minutes
    Fred

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  24. #53
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    They’re only observations Nick, we all do stuff differently
    I am using a hiblow 80 at the moment split between drain and airlift and getting plenty of air at both outlets.

    I think the wall would be fine, it’s only short, you could add in some brick mesh in every joint to be be safe, I’d probably do that on your corners anyway given the odd angles.
    A friendly builder on here should be able to advise.
    That 80 sounds about right considering it can run the entire system (minus RDF wash) on 58W is still lower than the existing 20,000lph pump plus I an 280W solar cell would make a sizeable dent in that operating cost over 10 years - even with our weather!

    I agree with most of them - I've just got to figure out how to make a chamber at depth and fibre glass it and route the pump returns. I could put a double wall at the base then run the pipes.

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  26. #54
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    The biggest mistake I made on my top pond nick. Was not putting a waste drain in my top pond.
    Admittedly it only gets cleaned once a year.
    But it's a ball ache all the same. Having to clean it out.
    With not been able to just flush it away.
    With the swill of a say garden hose.
    No where for the crap to go. I have to climb in there. And hump heavy plant baskets.
    And bail the crap out. Even with my pond vac. It ain't easy.
    Where if I had put a waste drain in. Hosepipe only job done in 5 minutes
    Fred

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    I’d still need to pump a portion of the chamber to empty, one option is to install a “bottom drain” of some sorts into the anoxic filter and feed it back into the RDF. Also the bottom of the airlift would be close to the the base so suction may keep it clear at the expense of dumping it into the main pond then into the RDF. The base of the chamber would be quite small.

    I’ve seen recycling as part of waste treatment.

    Edit: although settled mess can be shifted my a quick drain to waste - just as clearing the bottom drain on a pond. Probably go for 2.5” pipe on that. I’m thinking the baskets want to be sat on something to raise them off the floor.
    A simple mesh would then allow drained water to be pulled into the drain.

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  28. #55
    If it turns out a deeper anoxic chamber needs a clean then just drop a cheap sump pump in once every year and chuck it round the garden?
    Like you say. Your airlifts will probably suck most of it out.
    I’ve not found a lot of “mulm” in mine particularly. Most of the debris in the bottom of my first chamber has been made by me messing around arranging baskets.
    The “new” media that RS and myself are trialing doesn’t appear to leak out at all, at least, it hasn’t yet


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  30. #56
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    This is the current iteration - if I square the back corner then I loose some wall thickness due to a fence. Having the cut corner wall keeps the 215mm (actually I used 220mm for insulation)

    My thinking is that the two 4" returns can come back in at the back - there's 110mm space so I can add some diffusion pipework but to be honest I don't think there's that much need at the moment.

    Then two 4" just below water level air lifts can fit at the front - full 1.75m depth. I'd make the corner pieces of these boots - so the down tube can be removed from the sealed outlet tube. An alternative is to run the water into the front (nearest the pond) then lift the water from the back of the chamber - the horizontal tubes over the top the baskets and have a T junction to allow the bubbles and foam to collect in the top the of chamber.

    I can get 2x2x5=20 baskets (30x30x30) into this with room for the airlifts.

    The only concern I have is routing of the pipe work back - going down 1.75m to get under the footings.


    Screenshot 2020-05-29 at 10.24.06.jpg

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  32. #57
    How are you going to tie all your blockwork together?


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  34. #58
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    How are you going to tie all your blockwork together?
    I thought with the pond-chamber wall then use a simple interlocking of the bricks themselves on alternate rows perhaps with wall ties if need be.

    IMG_7746.jpg

    I was think that rather than simply block to block the obtuse corners/acute corners that the blocks are stacked to stick out but the proud edges are cut after measurement and before deploying. The idea is that I get the full 215mm all the time around the wall even if that means scarificing part of a block. Possibly would need a concrete chop saw and a diamond blade.

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  36. #59
    Cool. It’s more difficult than it first appears to get the angled corners right.
    Defiantly use some brick mesh for what it costs and a few ties yes.
    Lay a bit “dry” first to see how it works as Sod’s law says it won’t despite your best efforts.


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  38. #60
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Cool. It’s more difficult than it first appears to get the angled corners right.
    Defiantly use some brick mesh for what it costs and a few ties yes.
    Lay a bit “dry” first to see how it works as Sod’s law says it won’t despite your best efforts.
    Hehe the more I get into the detail.. the more I think this will be a marathon rather than a sprint.. which will annoy the mrs Seriously - this feels like our kitchen ... no straight edges or 90s ... but a builder+mate that arrived with a saw on foot and thank god had most of my own tools todo the job - even tried to charge me 500+ for additional work. I'm considering a concrete saw purchase - it will do the blocks (although hand held) but will also do the floor of the garage that needs a waste drain adding.. as luck has it the drum and the water level I think are about 4cm out.. so not a massive problem.

    Currently starting to target end of June with 2 weeks of vacation time dedicated to this. With a mini-digger.. and the materials delivered. That's the start.. at least from that point I can block when I have a free evening/weekend.

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