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  1. #701
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    I was contemplating using 4" timber on its edge so it would lift the sheets up at one edge so snow and rain wouldn't settle as much, then I would need to fill in the void at the sides with something to stop the wind getting under it, I think the wind chill is the biggest problem.

    I'll put some pictures on when I get chance, might not be until next week when I'm stuck in a hotel for the week, working away
    you could probably just cut some wedge shaped celotex to fill the gaps.

  2. #702
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    a bit!
    would probably hold up a wall like an RSJ
    It was delivered from Germany to hold up a gantry walkway, but the customer changed their mind so it went for scrap, it was designed as structural posts, so would defiantly hold some weight
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
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    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  4. #703
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    cheers,
    trying to decide between boxing in a heat exchanger on the back wall of the house outside,
    and running 2" PVC to it from the pond.
    would probably be the easiest to do.

    or running heating pipes underground up to the filter house and using a direct heat coil in the drum or bio filter.
    i could probably heat the cabin as well
    I ran 2 x 16mm barrier pipes from my central heating off a spare way on the underfloor heating manifold, i will eventually have a thermostatic head to control the heat automatically, I ran a 12 core cable with the pipes just because I could, the pipes are insulated in water bylaw insulation and inside a 4" underground sewer pipe for protection.

    The pipes come into the filter room fully insulated and then go to the heat exchanger, the heat exchanger can be bypassed in summer, but what I found was it restricted flow to much so I have the bypass open and the heater open so only about 1/3 of the water goes through the heater

    I didn't think about running the 2" pipe to the house but I didn't want the extra pipe flow restrictions or cost of the pipe to get to the house, so running the 16mm heating pipe was a no brainer.

    I need to spend some time before winter and fit doors to the filter room and insulate the heater, but constantly working away from home is a bit of a bind at the moment, struggling to get jobs done on the pond as the house takes priority.

    I did look at heating the drum and I might still look at a heater coil for the bio if i can find a stainless one or make my own from barrier pipe, not sure if the K1 constantly bubbling against the pipe might cause it to fail
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  6. #704
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    This is the type of coil i was going to use in the drum or bio

    https://www.absolute-koi.com/submers...changers-2176/

    I can make a short loop of 2" pvc from the pond to a heat exchanger as its only 2 meters from the house.
    But heating pipes would be a 9 meter run...

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  8. #705
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    This was the installation of the heating pipes from the house to the pond





    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  10. #706
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    This is the type of coil i was going to use in the drum or bio

    https://www.absolute-koi.com/submers...changers-2176/

    I can make a short loop of 2" pvc from the pond to a heat exchanger as its only 2 meters from the house.
    But heating pipes would be a 9 meter run...
    The heat exchangers look good, I looked at one on eBay 12mm pipe x 6meters

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393007956520

    My pond is only 2 meters from the house but would be about 4 meters of pipe and multiple bends, and the heating boiler is also on the outside wall by the pond so the same run either way just no worries of having pond pipes in the house taking up space in the kitchen
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  12. #707
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Had a bit of time this morning so started to put the sheeting over the pond didn't have a clue on how I was going to do it but just needed to get it on before I went away for the week, just got it in place when the heavens opened, I didn't get chance to seal the ends, clean the glass or cut a hole for feeding and inspection

    Oh well, job for another week

    Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  14. #708
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    This was the installation of the heating pipes from the house to the pond





    you did well to get those heating pipes in the 4" drainage pipes, with insulation!

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  16. #709
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    The heat exchangers look good, I looked at one on eBay 12mm pipe x 6meters

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393007956520

    My pond is only 2 meters from the house but would be about 4 meters of pipe and multiple bends, and the heating boiler is also on the outside wall by the pond so the same run either way just no worries of having pond pipes in the house taking up space in the kitchen

    i've seen that ebay listing of the heat exchanger before, but thought the postage from germany would be a pain...

    my boiler is in the middle of the house in an upstairs bedroom cupboard, so pipework is not going to be easy...

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  18. #710
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    Had a bit of time this morning so started to put the sheeting over the pond didn't have a clue on how I was going to do it but just needed to get it on before I went away for the week, just got it in place when the heavens opened, I didn't get chance to seal the ends, clean the glass or cut a hole for feeding and inspection

    Oh well, job for another week

    Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
    i done the same when i first got my polycarb.
    yours look pretty decent anyway...

    the temp suddenly dropped, and i basically just chucked them over the pond until i got chance to sort it properly
    looked a lot worse than your do...

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  20. #711
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    you did well to get those heating pipes in the 4" drainage pipes, with insulation!
    Amazing what you can do with a bit of manipulation and some good lubricant Roy and Lynn's shiny new pond (one day)

    Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  22. #712
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    This is the heat exchanger, I'll do some pics tomorrow of the whole setup

    Well after a few weeks of testing I can confirm the heating is not as good as I thought it would be, this could be due to me using the underfloor heating system as apposed to the central heating system so I suppose swapping to over is an option, I think the underfloor heating manifold runs at 50 degrees and the central heating runs at 75 degrees, or do I just bite the bullet and install a new system, probably look at https://www.absolute-koi.com/submers...changers-2176/ as suggested by DTF but then where would it be installed, not sure there is enough room in the drum and the BIO is moving K1 so it would need to be installed upright to stop the K1 trying to lift it all the time, or do i just leave it this year and see how it goes? decisions, decisions

    My temperature monitor is reading a 0.2 degree rise in temperature in the heater body when its on but no change in water temperature in 5 hours of running with the volume of water that's not really a surprise, I was just expecting better
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  24. #713
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    The pond is maintaining 8.6 degrees with the covers on
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  26. #714
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Shame it’s not performing as well as you hoped.

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  28. #715
    A very rough calculation (which in my haste may well be wrong) suggests that a pond with your volume of water would need very approximately 25kW of heat input to raise its temp by 1C per hour.
    Obviously you would need to take into account heat losses, but it gives you an idea.

    If you have a standard two pipe system boiler it is very unlikely to be able to deliver that kind of output. Combi boilers are often circa 30kW because they need to be able to deliver instantaneous hot water.
    If you manage about half that (12kW) through a suitable heat exchanger this would mean about 1C every two hours (actually takes longer due to heat losses) which is similar to or higher than many ASHP outputs at low ambient temperatures. Ironically this would cost less to run than any ASHP operating at a COP of less than 5 at these temperatures**.

    So first, whatever the specification of the heat exchanger claims, I would accurately measure the heating water temperature just as it enters the heat exchanger and just as it leaves to find the temperature drop.
    If it is significantly less than 10C then I would suggest a larger SA heat exchanger as a first step (10C is a recognised healthy temp drop in this type of application if I remember correctly).
    If it is significantly more than 10C then your flow rate is too small (meaning pump it faster and/or larger bore pipes).
    If you can measure the temp drop AND the flow rate we can more accurately work out the actual amount of heat going into the pond.

    Hope this helps.

    ** Current energy price movements may alter this.
    My DIY ponds from 1988 until present day.
    All can be found here:
    https://www.ukzero.com/pond.htm

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  30. #716
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLittle0 View Post
    Well after a few weeks of testing I can confirm the heating is not as good as I thought it would be, this could be due to me using the underfloor heating system as apposed to the central heating system so I suppose swapping to over is an option, I think the underfloor heating manifold runs at 50 degrees and the central heating runs at 75 degrees, or do I just bite the bullet and install a new system, probably look at https://www.absolute-koi.com/submers...changers-2176/ as suggested by DTF but then where would it be installed, not sure there is enough room in the drum and the BIO is moving K1 so it would need to be installed upright to stop the K1 trying to lift it all the time, or do i just leave it this year and see how it goes? decisions, decisions

    My temperature monitor is reading a 0.2 degree rise in temperature in the heater body when its on but no change in water temperature in 5 hours of running with the volume of water that's not really a surprise, I was just expecting better
    50C should work fine with some calculations...
    assuming you are pumping at least 3,000 lph or so of pond water through the heat exchanger.
    measure the temperature of pond water going in and out the heat exchanger.
    to see how much increase you are getting.

    the issue of heating is a calculation of flow velocity, temperature, and transfer surface area.
    as you have said underfloor heating is run a lot cooler than radiators to stop the floor expanding and cracking.

    how have you connected to the underfloor heating, off the manifold, or before it?
    and does it have a secondary pump?
    measure the temperature where your pipe connects at the manifold and again at the point it enters the heat exchanger.
    (these kind of things make it easy if you have one)
    https://www.screwfix.com/p/magnusson...rmometer/1352x

    then measure the temperature drop of the heating pipe across the heat exchanger,
    if it exits the manifold at 50C and is 40C at the heat exhanger the flow may be too slow and need a looped secondary heating pump.
    if it comes in at the heat exchanger at say 45C and exits at 40C a bigger heat exchanger would allow more heat transfer.
    if it comes in at say 45C and exits at 25C then you could speed up the flow of hot heating water by a looped secondary heating pump.

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  32. #717
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukzero View Post
    A very rough calculation (which in my haste may well be wrong) suggests that a pond with your volume of water would need very approximately 25kW of heat input to raise its temp by 1C per hour.
    Obviously you would need to take into account heat losses, but it gives you an idea.

    If you have a standard two pipe system boiler it is very unlikely to be able to deliver that kind of output. Combi boilers are often circa 30kW because they need to be able to deliver instantaneous hot water.
    If you manage about half that (12kW) through a suitable heat exchanger this would mean about 1C every two hours (actually takes longer due to heat losses) which is similar to or higher than many ASHP outputs at low ambient temperatures. Ironically this would cost less to run than any ASHP operating at a COP of less than 5 at these temperatures**.

    So first, whatever the specification of the heat exchanger claims, I would accurately measure the heating water temperature just as it enters the heat exchanger and just as it leaves to find the temperature drop.
    If it is significantly less than 10C then I would suggest a larger SA heat exchanger as a first step (10C is a recognised healthy temp drop in this type of application if I remember correctly).
    If it is significantly more than 10C then your flow rate is too small (meaning pump it faster and/or larger bore pipes).
    If you can measure the temp drop AND the flow rate we can more accurately work out the actual amount of heat going into the pond.

    Hope this helps.

    ** Current energy price movements may alter this.

    great minds lol!
    i'm thinking there is not enough flow of heating water through the heat exchanger.
    and it doesn't have a separate zoned pump.

    but a 25KW boiler is way more than the pond needs.
    one swimming pool i did the heating installation on, had a 60kw boiler for a 6 mtr x 20 mtr 180,000 litre swimming pool

  33. #718
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Thanks for the vey detailed replies guy's, a little bit more information that may help.

    • The boiler is a Potterton Titanium Combi 40Kw
    • The pond loop is taken off the underfloor heating manifold
    • The pond is on its own zone
    • It is a pumped manifold system for the underfloor heating (6 zones, only 5 used)
    • The flow rate is adjustable from 1L/min to 5L/min
    • Currently the pond is set at 1.5 L/min
    • 18,000 lh pump for the pond water, so with losses I would expect 12,000 l/h, 1/3 goes through the heat exchanger, so around 4,000 lh (max)


    @ 1.5 L/m the Flow is 52.2 degrees and the return is 34.0 degrees
    @ 3 L/min the Flow is 52.2 degrees and the return is 38.0 degrees
    @ 4 L/min the Flow is 52.2 degrees and the return is 40.4 degrees

    I have increased the flow to 5L/m and i will check to see what that is like when its settled in

    I think I will add two new sensors to my Temperature monitor and measure the In and out temperature of the heat exchanger
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  35. #719
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Thanks for the vey detailed replies guy's, a little bit more information that may help.
    The boiler is a Potterton Titanium Combi 40Kw
    The pond loop is taken off the underfloor heating manifold
    The pond is on its own zone
    It is a pumped manifold system for the underfloor heating (6 zones, only 5 used)
    The flow rate is adjustable from 1L/min to 5L/min
    Currently the pond is set at 1.5 L/min

    8,000 lh pump for the pond water, so with losses I would expect 12,000 l/h, 1/3 goes through the heat exchanger, so around 4,000 lh (max)

    @ 1.5 L/m the Flow is 52.2 degrees and the return is 34.0 degrees
    @ 3 L/min the Flow is 52.2 degrees and the return is 38.0 degrees
    @ 4 L/min the Flow is 52.2 degrees and the return is 40.4 degrees

    I have increased the flow to 5L/m and i will check to see what that is like when its settled in
    I think I will add two new sensors to my Temperature monitor and measure the In and out temperature of the heat exchanger<br><br>
    Last edited by RoyLittle0; 09-12-2021 at 10:28 PM.
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

  36. #720
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    The heat exchanger is 100000 BTU Stainless Steel Heat Exchanger (PH0105) which I believe is 29 Kw
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

 

 
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