Welcome to Koi Forum. Is this your first visit? Register
Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1

    Kujaku development

    Hey guys,
    Iíve got this nisai kujaku whose matsuba seems to be disappeared overtime. Only some black patches left in places.
    Is this normal? Any thoughts?
    Thanks



    1500 gal pond, 4" BD, DIY Drum & Moving bed,
    UV 25, DIY Shower, 70l Air pump
    5 Koi

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion samp09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    1,768
    Thanks / Likes
    3571
    I know with some koi it can depend on the environment they are kept in, for example, my goshiki when in a temp blue pool for a week or so went much paler, then once back in the black pond it went black again, but not sure on the changes in Kujaku as I haven't looked too much into the variety tbh

  3. Thanks Ajm, Kuzmich, dbs Thanked / Liked this Post
  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Durham
    Posts
    7,953
    Thanks / Likes
    15869
    Ph can have a big effect on colour .

    What could be worth a try is https://aurorakoi.co.uk/product/bactoplus-fresh-psb/ seen some good results not sure it'll work for you but ask gaz he might be able to advise better

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

  5. Thanks Kuzmich, dbs, Gazkoi Thanked / Liked this Post
  6. #4
    Maybe that’s the case as the changes began shortly after I transferred the koi from quarantine to the pond (however both are with black liner and with similar PH) ��*♂️
    The other thing is I have 3 kujaku and one of them is completely different (see the photo) and didn’t loose the matsuba pattern. But the other two did, mystery. ��
    6A284E7A-7C22-4BB4-96C9-7814F27837FE.jpeg
    1500 gal pond, 4" BD, DIY Drum & Moving bed,
    UV 25, DIY Shower, 70l Air pump
    5 Koi

  7. Thanks Ajm, dbs Thanked / Liked this Post
  8. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,040
    Thanks / Likes
    1620
    I suspect the quality of the matsuba effect is down to genetics, rather than water quality (as much as it'd be good it was the latter).

    I bought two kujakus from queni koi who were the same age and from the same breeder (Marusei).

    They've been raised in the same pond. As they've grown up one has developed well with the matsuba effect nicely balanced across its back. The other has lost a lot of the matsuba effect, it's only there in patches and has a few odd scales where its really dark, which looks more like a shimmy.

    So I believe the chances are, no matter what you do it won't improve if the genetics aren't quite right for the individual fish.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  9. Thanks Ajm, dbs, Gazkoi, Kuzmich Thanked / Liked this Post
  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Tokyo Japan
    Posts
    220
    Thanks / Likes
    182
    It's quite an interesting change. At first it looked like GOSHIKI, then it became KUJAKU with more light, and now it even looks like YAMATONISHIKI with some of the SUMI condensed.
    It would be most helpful if we could unravel the reasons for this and find out who bred it and for what purpose.

    Probably most of the crosses between already fixed purebred KUJAKU will be KUJAKU.
    2nd crop Kujaku - 1st culling

    Also, if you cross GOSHIKI with other GOSHIKI, which seems to be the trend in recent years, you will almost always get KOHAKU or GOSHIKI.
    https://youtu.be/rIXxZXRU29E?t=487
    https://youtu.be/VjH5Cufj-_E

    However, if you try to develop a breed of these species further, you can produce different types of fry by crossing different tendencies.
    In such cases, it is important to know what the original parents were like and why they were bred. In such cases, it may be the blood of the original parents, or even the grandparents' blood.
    ※These are some examples of hybrid combinations of fry that can appear in many different types.
    https://youtu.be/Tod4SW0B5l8?t=510
    https://youtu.be/O_TfYgditc8
    https://youtu.be/jVNlHTPpEkA?t=137
    https://youtu.be/69SxSz47Y8E?t=50
    Since your KOI has undergone so many cross-breed changes, it is quite probable that it has a little bit of the blood of a different breed. It is easy to imagine.
    Furthermore, who bred the KOI and for what purpose, and was it the ideal image of the KOI, or was it an unintentional by-product? I am also interested in this question.

    It's a long story, but in the end it's hard to say without having the opportunity to know the tendencies of the KOI's OYAGOI (parent koi) and their many brothers and sisters.
    If you try to breed your own Koi to find out the secrets and tips, you will find out a lot of things.

    It seems that not only in Japan, but also in your country, many people are trying to breed with different intentions.
    My Koi Breeding Project - Part 40 - Kujaku 'Stock Take' and 5000 Goshiki fry moved outside
    A mix of high quality Yoshikigoi Tosai 10 09 2019
    Some very interesting Kujaku that are continuing their journey here at Byer Koi Farm
    1 month Kujaku
    See you soon!
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 15-09-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  11. Thanks Kuzmich Thanked / Liked this Post
  12. #7
    Thank you Naoki for your thoughts, much appreciated. Very interesting, I haven't thought about cross breed, very likely to be the case here.The seller stated that this Kujaku came from Aoki breeder but unfortunately I don't know any info on parents.
    Any chance it can still develop matsuba pattern?

    Many Thanks!
    1500 gal pond, 4" BD, DIY Drum & Moving bed,
    UV 25, DIY Shower, 70l Air pump
    5 Koi

  13. Thanks Naoki Atsumi Thanked / Liked this Post
  14. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Tokyo Japan
    Posts
    220
    Thanks / Likes
    182
    Under normal circumstances, once MATSUBA appears on the surface, it should not disappear.
    However, there is apparently a new trend in recent years: the GINGA (銀河 = Galaxy) variety.
    Even in the period that I know of, there were rare instances of KOI with a similar texture, but in recent years someone has fixed it and it seems to have become an independent variety.
    It seems to be characterized by MATSUBA at first, and later by a more metallic element covering the top.

    https://youtu.be/GrvIJdOVI2k
    This appears to be a midway stage where the metal is gradually coming to the surface.
    https://youtu.be/JHA0AwV7R0s
    This is not a KUJYAKU, but a MATSUBA pattern hidden underneath by a more intense metal.
    https://youtu.be/jfX1rAtmc-c
    Is this a finished state where the metallic elements have completely covered the MATSUBA pattern?

    In any case I have no experience of keeping this type of KOI myself, nor have I found any videos showing the fry or the culling process. So I can't say anything definitively, and it's only a very rough guess, but if your KUJYAKU-like KOI MASTUBA proves that GINGA blood has been added to the mix, it could be a process of increasing metallic elements in the future. That's my best guess at the moment.

    Either way, we'll be looking forward to hearing from you after the fact!
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 22-09-2021 at 11:13 PM.

 

 

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:40 AM. Online Koi Mag Forum
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3
Copyright © 2021 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

vBulletin Improved By vBFoster® (Lite Version), © UltimateScheme, Ltd.