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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Spring woes arrived early

    I noticed my biggest mirror (about 20lb) was bottom sitting with it's face in the corner a couple of days ago.

    I checked on it yesterday and it's laying on its side on the bottom. Spring woes arrived early

    I've checked water params (I suspected the start of a ph crash) but looked fine. I added some bicarb, just in case the drop kits were wrong.

    Temp - 10.7C

    Ammonia - 0
    Nitrite - 0
    Nitrate- 50
    Ph - 8
    Kh - 4

    I did a scrape, but there was barely any mucus? After multiple scrapes I got a tiny amount on a slide, but couldn't see anything.

    In my haste to save the fish I put it in my quarantine tank yesterday, even though it's way too big for it. I've added 0.8% salt and acriflavine and am heating from 11C up to 14C today.

    It's still alive today but still on its side on the bottom.

    Any ideas or pointers?





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    Last edited by Twhitenosugar; 04-02-2024 at 02:37 PM.
    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    My best guess was some sort of bacterial infection. It's belly really pinked up yesterday, but that might've been from stress of netting as it didn't look pink today?

    But given it's slumped on its side on the bottom, does that mean it's swim bladder is knackered?

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    My best guess was some sort of bacterial infection. It's belly really pinked up yesterday, but that might've been from stress of netting as it didn't look pink today?

    But given it's slumped on its side on the bottom, does that mean it's swim bladder is knackered?

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    It could be temperature related,
    but a native carp species should be more tolerant of cold water then an ornamental carp.

    it's hard to tell until it tries to swim if the bladder is gone.
    if it stuggles to stay up in the water without constantly swimming with tail and fins, then yes most likely.
    but sometime they just don't want to swim if there is another problem.

    pinking of the belly can usually attributred to bottom sitting,
    as the skin isn't meant to stay in hard contact with the pond floor.

    koi generally sit on the bottom with swim bladdder gone, but still upright.
    but king carp are deeper bodied so may struggle.

    not really a lot i can think of to suggest, other than what you are doing and slowly raising temperature.

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  6. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave.

    I was surprised it was the mirror that had keeled over. As you say they should be much tougher than a koi.

    I got the mirrors from VS Fisheries. They stock loads of fishing lakes and the carp tend to thrive and grow well, even though they will occasionally get caught by an angler.

    OK I'll have a look and see about the swimming. The fish is very deep bellied compared to the koi, so makes sense that it would sit on its side rather than belly.

    When I looked earlier the pink belly was back to normal so I think it was just stress of being netted and manhandled.

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    Last edited by Twhitenosugar; 04-02-2024 at 06:48 PM.
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  8. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    In terms of the fish sinking, when I first put the fish in the QT it was on its side but floating.

    But then again it may've just done that because it had air trapped in it from when I carried it from the pond to the garage.

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  10. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Not an expert by any means but I wouldn't think it was temp related if at 10.7 deg,mine are at under 8 deg and very lively.

    So, maybe a bit of bacterial being red under neath.
    You have done right to up heat and salt great healer,maybe some Virkon Aquatic work wonders with mine.

    Nothing on scrapes so maybe up the heat more and wait to see.

    Sorry not very helpfull.
    John

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  12. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Thanks John.

    Just wanted to check there's nothing obvious I'm missing here.

    It probably is temp related, but the coldest temp I measured was 6C so would've thought it would be fine. Although saying that, I put my hand in the water when it was that cold and it hurt like hell. So 6C can't be easy to live through.

    The only other thing that happened is the winter covers (polycarb multiwall panels) fell in the pond in the storms. They ended up sinking as they're not completely air tight.

    They were a nightmare to fish out as they were so heavy. But they would've sunk slowly, gradually filling with water, so I doubt it would've hurt the fish. Plus there is no obvious injury on the fish, other than a small scrape on its gill cover.

    So annoying. It's always the favourite ones that get ill or injured.

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    He is certainly a big lump of a fish
    Maybe just stress with the covers falling in,may help if he has a buddy in with him.

    Hope he pulls through ok.
    John

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    i think the pink of the belly looks more stress related.
    as john says native carp are tough so 10C shouldn't be a problem,
    but i think he is right that the pink colour could be a bacterial infection or virus, possibly internal, and the pink is stress related to it.

    best of luck with the treatment, seems you are doing the right thing.

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    I checked on the fish today.

    So he's still alive, and the pink on his belly has gone.

    Due to the Acriflavine, I can't actually see the fish in the water too well. Although I did see the fish swimming about along the bottom - which seems to be a positive.

    I'm hoping the water will clear up so I can properly observe the fish. The fact it was swimming along the bottom could still point to a dodgy swim bladder.

    I'm now in a dilemma about how long I keep the fish in the tank. I don't want to return it too soon. In case there was a bacterial issue and it needs time to clear.

    But equally the fish looks massive in the tank (it's about half the length of the tank) and I don't want it getting injured from trying to get out.

    I also don't want to heat too much because if I do need to move the fish into the pond at short notice, I don't want the temp drop to be too much.

    I suppose this is a good dilemma to have.

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Sounds good news there mate.
    What's the temp difference between pond and tank?
    John

  21. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Currently about 4C. Bit too much of a drop. And if a cold spell hits, which I hear one is on its way, it could get even further apart.

    I'll have another check this evening to see how it's getting on.

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  23. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Ok so an update. Went into the garage and caught the mirror swimming just under the surface.

    So seems to be better. He did spend most of the time swimming on the bottom when I was observing, but may just be because he knew I was there?

    Temp is 15.9C in QT and 11C in the pond. So I've turned the heater off to allow the QT to drop in temp so it's closer to the pond.

    He looks a right old lump next to those koi (which are 40cm long).

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  25. #14
    Hi, It's a hard one that, if your happy keeping it in the vat. And if you can heat the water to 24 degrees it will give the fish the best chance of building up it's immunity. Lovely Mirror.

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  27. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Didnt realise you had him in with others so he should be fine.
    I would be keeping him in there at mid teens temp till spring.
    John

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  29. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Sounds like you done everything right, hard to tell what the issue could be. I find that my koi will sit on the bottom but rarely in fact don't think I have ever seen my mirror on the bottom and have measured temps of 0.3 I think I got too a few years ago before I had covers. Recently was around 4-5 and it was still fine so I don't think it is temperature related personally but it could be shock or something from the covers maybe?

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  31. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Completely ignore that Tom, I went out and looked in the pond with the phone light yesterday when putting the dogs out about 10:30pm and they were all on the bottom including the big fat mirror although was laying normally sat upright!

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  33. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Ha, sods law that is. Although they may've just been asleep?

    My chag sat on the bottom for weeks over the coldest part of this winter. I'd see all the other fish occasionally up at the window but barely saw the chag. Out of any of the fish, that one was the one I was most worried about. Fortunately he's up and feeding along with all the others now.

    So I'm in a quandry about this mirror. I could leave him in the garage tank but it's so cramped in there. Plus there is a chance of ammonia/nitrite spiking now it's massively over stocked. I tend to do large water changes (70%) each time I do one, so should be able to keep on top of things, I just don't want the mirror to injure it's self by being in such confined space for too long.

    I'm also worried I go in the garage to find it's jumped out. Fortunately I do have jump guards, but they were only designed to repel small fish... Not a 20lb carp.


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    Last edited by Twhitenosugar; 06-02-2024 at 10:33 AM.
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  35. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai big h's Avatar
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    Ive seen fish lay on their sides many times in various ponds and its always been temps related.My big shiro has been doing it,and now its warmed up its swimming happily.Theres no doubt some fish tolerate colder temps than others

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  37. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Ok that's reassuring to know.

    The fish is still in the QT in the garage and is swimming normally, so will reduce temps in the QT to match the pond and transfer him back.

    I must admit I panicked when I saw it layed over on its side and netted it and got it into the QT, thinking it's swim bladder had gone.



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