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  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Just to point out the CT dose you have been administering is a very low dose that will likely knock back bacteria short term but not completely eradicate it.

    However, since you asked for responses from the sensible and cautious amongst us, you may not want to read about how many kilos of CT I have chucked into my pond!

    Only to say, with a higher pH CT can be dosed quite high and is a great weapon against all manner of nasties. In a lower pH you cannot get away with a CT dosage high enough to kill nasties without affecting the health of your fish.

    With a pH of 7.8, in water that holds a KH of at least 4, a CT dosage of 15mg/l should not cause any problems for the Koi (assuming only Koi are kept in the pond). This would be a dose of about 532 grams in 7500 imperial gallons. On completion of treatment you would probably need around 120 grams of Sodium Thiosulphate to fully neutralize it.

    That is not a recommendation to try it, it is just to put into perspective the dose you have used against the dose I would use if facing issues where I determined CT was the correct treatment to use.

    In my opinion the dosages written on packets of CT manufactured especially for Koi are a complete waste of time and don't do anything.

    I have personally dosed CT at 20 mg/l in very hard water with a pH of 8.2 and have wiped out Costia, Chilodonella and flukes, with the Koi still active and asking for food throughout the treatment. Raised scales went back down within a couple of days and red streaks in fins completely cleared within 5 days. That was a dose of 240 grams in my old 12,000 litre pond in summer temperatures, repeated daily for 3 days, then neutralized with ST and a good sized water change, followed by a gap of 5 days, then another 3 consecutive daily treatments (gill flukes), then neutralized again with ST and a good sized water change. My filters barely wobbled even at that dosage.

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  3. #22
    Wow, that's a lot to take in when you think how cautious I have been
    At 20g/1000 litres I am only a quarter of your dosages
    I take your point about PH so need to stay in my comfort zone, but this does give me food for thought
    Do you always neutralize with Sodium Thiosulphate? what dose rate?

  4. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapenyaki1 View Post
    Wow, that's a lot to take in when you think how cautious I have been
    At 20g/1000 litres I am only a quarter of your dosages
    I take your point about PH so need to stay in my comfort zone, but this does give me food for thought
    Do you always neutralize with Sodium Thiosulphate? what dose rate?
    I only neutralise with ST at the end of each course of treatment, not between daily doses, otherwise you would be partially neutralising the next dose before its even gone in. If dosing daily for multiple days I would however be cautious about the subsequent dosages because CT will degrade at different speeds depending on various factors such as sunlight exposure on the pond etc. One might consider a 15mg/l dose on day 1, followed by half dose on days 2 and 3 etc, maybe more so for an indoor pond without any natural sunlight / UV, or an outdoor pond that isn't receiving full sun.

    I mix 60 grams of ST with 500ml of hot water (then let it cool), and for normal tap water de-chlorination 10ml of this mixture will dechlorinate 450 litres / 100 gallons of water (dosage information available from Manky Sanke's website). After a few days of administering CT at my dosage it can take pretty much the whole 500ml bottle to completely neutralise (This is in my 3200 gallon pond with pH of 8, hence my guess at 1000ml / 120 grams of ST if my pond was the size of yours). There's no real risk of overdosing ST like this.

    If the fish were to have problems after administering CT, the ST can quickly neutralise, so you have a get out of jail free card.

    I dose the ST solution up until the point where a DPD4 test runs clear.

    The reason for neutralizing with ST is because you don't want the CT, or any chemical for that matter, to remain active any longer than is necessary to do the job at hand. I tested some CT on the kids paddling pool that was going a bit green, it done an amazing job of clearing/sterilising, but since the pool was covered most of the time the sun didn't get to it and the DPD4 test was still super pink after a week. You probably wouldn't want that in your pond, at least not when ignoring the dosage on the packet! The kids survived btw.

    For someone with a pH of say 7, I'd not attempt to use CT above the packet dose and only use it to reduce mucuos layer prior to say a fluke treatment. Its much more toxic to the fish at lower pH. I say that having talked to people who've experimented with CT in lower pH's and basically concluded the parasites are still present post treatment and their fish took a turn for the worse. This is possibly one of the reasons why one person will recommend something while another will tell you to avoid it - different pond environments yield different results.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 29-09-2022 at 11:35 AM.

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  6. #24
    Some good information
    I have been dosing at 15mg/l for the past couple of days PH 8 KH 7 so far so good, constant monitoring.
    I will do the last dose tomorrow, how long do you wait before dosing the Sodium Thiosulphate and water change?

  7. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I would dose the ST 24 hours after the final treatment.

    Water change.... As and when really, I think it is one of those things that is best decided by you as you know your system and koi best. I would probably do 15-20% change a day or 2 after treatment has ended, but some people say a water change of that size upsets their koi.

    How are the koi, and any indication of improvement?

    Don't forget to keep an eye on Ammonia and nitrite as in current weather I'd have thought the CT would knock the filters back a little.

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    Last edited by RS2OOO; 03-10-2022 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Just to point out the CT dose you have been administering is a very low dose that will likely knock back bacteria short term but not completely eradicate it.

    However, since you asked for responses from the sensible and cautious amongst us, you may not want to read about how many kilos of CT I have chucked into my pond!

    Only to say, with a higher pH CT can be dosed quite high and is a great weapon against all manner of nasties. In a lower pH you cannot get away with a CT dosage high enough to kill nasties without affecting the health of your fish.

    With a pH of 7.8, in water that holds a KH of at least 4, a CT dosage of 15mg/l should not cause any problems for the Koi (assuming only Koi are kept in the pond). This would be a dose of about 532 grams in 7500 imperial gallons. On completion of treatment you would probably need around 120 grams of Sodium Thiosulphate to fully neutralize it.

    That is not a recommendation to try it, it is just to put into perspective the dose you have used against the dose I would use if facing issues where I determined CT was the correct treatment to use.

    In my opinion the dosages written on packets of CT manufactured especially for Koi are a complete waste of time and don't do anything.

    I have personally dosed CT at 20 mg/l in very hard water with a pH of 8.2 and have wiped out Costia, Chilodonella and flukes, with the Koi still active and asking for food throughout the treatment. Raised scales went back down within a couple of days and red streaks in fins completely cleared within 5 days. That was a dose of 240 grams in my old 12,000 litre pond in summer temperatures, repeated daily for 3 days, then neutralized with ST and a good sized water change, followed by a gap of 5 days, then another 3 consecutive daily treatments (gill flukes), then neutralized again with ST and a good sized water change. My filters barely wobbled even at that dosage.
    Interesting reading about Ct's uses. Would CT at the higher dosing rates kill off Trich?

    I've done some scrapes today and both my pond and quarantine tank both thankfully look fluke free (although I'm struggling to believe it). But both have a high amount of Trich, which I want to treat before temps plummet. But I want to avoid PP as it is so harsh.

    Also can salt be used with CT at high dosing rates? Or is it best to just stick to CT.?


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    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  9. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    when faced with unknown issues after clear tests and scrapes,
    i would generally do a large trickle in water change over a week or so replacing 50% of the water to see if there is an improvement.
    especially after repeated treatments the water can become a chemical soup of things in various stages of breaking down....
    but i would invest in a hanna total chlorine checker the ultra low range model. (PPB)
    it gives positive readings at a very low level before they are apparent on a DPD4 test.
    and would add a bone char stage at the end of the carbon dechlorinators just to help with any potential metals removal.

    the only other thing i could think of is have you done gill scrapes?
    i have had positive scrapes for gill flukes and costia from the gills when absolutely nothing at all shows on countless scrapes from the body...

    hope you get to the bottom of it soon

  10. #28
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Just to point out the CT dose you have been administering is a very low dose that will likely knock back bacteria short term but not completely eradicate it.

    However, since you asked for responses from the sensible and cautious amongst us, you may not want to read about how many kilos of CT I have chucked into my pond!

    Only to say, with a higher pH CT can be dosed quite high and is a great weapon against all manner of nasties. In a lower pH you cannot get away with a CT dosage high enough to kill nasties without affecting the health of your fish.

    With a pH of 7.8, in water that holds a KH of at least 4, a CT dosage of 15mg/l should not cause any problems for the Koi (assuming only Koi are kept in the pond). This would be a dose of about 532 grams in 7500 imperial gallons. On completion of treatment you would probably need around 120 grams of Sodium Thiosulphate to fully neutralize it.

    That is not a recommendation to try it, it is just to put into perspective the dose you have used against the dose I would use if facing issues where I determined CT was the correct treatment to use.

    In my opinion the dosages written on packets of CT manufactured especially for Koi are a complete waste of time and don't do anything.

    I have personally dosed CT at 20 mg/l in very hard water with a pH of 8.2 and have wiped out Costia, Chilodonella and flukes, with the Koi still active and asking for food throughout the treatment. Raised scales went back down within a couple of days and red streaks in fins completely cleared within 5 days. That was a dose of 240 grams in my old 12,000 litre pond in summer temperatures, repeated daily for 3 days, then neutralized with ST and a good sized water change, followed by a gap of 5 days, then another 3 consecutive daily treatments (gill flukes), then neutralized again with ST and a good sized water change. My filters barely wobbled even at that dosage.
    Very interesting read Rs and one to remember.
    One thing I cant get is when you neutralise with st after 3 x treatments of ct then wait 5 days to retreat,how long does the st stay in the water?

    If it's still there it could neutralise the first of the next dose.
    This question was asked on here a good while ago,as in how long does st last in the pond.

    Think even Manky didnt really know ( no disrespect to Syd ) but how can you tell?
    John

  11. #29
    Just to clarify why the time sodium thiosulphate will stay in the water can't be determined.

    Sodium thiosulphate has a very long life in pure water which is why you can make a stock solution by dissolving dry crystals in water rather than adding it as dry crystals.

    In pond water, it is broken down by bacteria which reduce sulphur to provide their energy needs and the rate at which they do this depends very much on individual circumstances.

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  13. #30
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Thanks Syd, so it will vary on different ponds.
    John

  14. #31
    Yep, very much John. It depends on the size of the sulphur eating bug colony, which will probably be there in a small colony using other sulphur containing compounds for their energy needs but, as with the biofilter bugs, the colony size will depend on the nutrient source available.

    In theory, the sulphur eating bug colony will probably be much larger if you regularly add more sodium thiosulphate than necessary, and therefore any excess won't last as long as in a pond where the exact amount is added for dechlorination.

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  16. #32
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    Interesting reading about Ct's uses. Would CT at the higher dosing rates kill off Trich?

    I've done some scrapes today and both my pond and quarantine tank both thankfully look fluke free (although I'm struggling to believe it). But both have a high amount of Trich, which I want to treat before temps plummet. But I want to avoid PP as it is so harsh.

    Also can salt be used with CT at high dosing rates? Or is it best to just stick to CT.?


    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    Sorry about late reply I forgot about this thread.

    In all honesty I couldn't give a definitive answer as I've never used CT against trich. I would say yes, at the dose I've used in high pH water it will wipe out trich. It certainly seems to wipe out everything else.

    But if trich is your one and only target then might be cheaper to use something like Duncan's ICC, and safer if you have a lower pH, and/or lower KH.

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  18. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Very interesting read Rs and one to remember.
    One thing I cant get is when you neutralise with st after 3 x treatments of ct then wait 5 days to retreat,how long does the st stay in the water?

    If it's still there it could neutralise the first of the next dose.
    This question was asked on here a good while ago,as in how long does st last in the pond.

    Think even Manky didnt really know ( no disrespect to Syd ) but how can you tell?
    Think Manky has already answered better than I could.

    In my situation I added small amounts of ST until the DPD4 was clear, so any overdose would have been small. I also did water changes (through purifier) before the next CT treatment.

    Then when adding the next CT I added 10% dose initially, did a DPD4 test and it was already pink so I knew at least 90% of the dose would be active, which is fine considering I was dosing 10 times the packet dose!

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