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  1. #1

    Bloated koi, Dropsy?

    Was doing my pond this morning and noticed that on of my fish was incredibly bloated, with a bit of what I've see referenced to as "pineconing" got pictures below, she's the largest fish, and has always been chunky, but the pronounced bloating from behind the gills is new Seeing this I done a round of testing.

    Ammo:0
    Nitrite:0
    Nitrate: had a slight pink colour, have kicked off a water change.
    pH:~8
    KH:10 drops to yellow
    GH:2 drops to blue


    What can I do, from what Im reading online, the outlook isn't good?






  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Best thing I have read for dropsy is a bath of acriflavine and salt if you have a hospital tank. Malnorwich on here managed to bring 3 back over a 4 week period by doing this with salt at a level of 0.6 I believe.

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  4. #3
    don't currently have a hospital setup, but do have a large plastic show tank that I could put him in, have ordered a mini filter/bubbler and a heater, and some Acriflavine, salt

    no idea how I'm going to get her out of the pond, she's gigantic


    What sort of temperature should I get the water to? obviously ill use water from the pond to start with, I assume an aquarium heater will bring the water temperature up gradually enough for it to be in with the fish?

  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Ideally around 24 I believe is the best sort of temperature but sure someone else will come along to help soon.

  6. #5
    Have a tank filled in the conservatory now, just waiting on the filter/heater arriving, should be here later today (thanks amazon!). I did half/half fresh water (filtered) and pond water. I presume I want the fish in there before turning on the heater?

    I dont have a tool for measuring salt, but know I have around 267L of water (from the size/depth), so was going to use that with the directions on the aquarium salt to dose, or is the package instructions not likely to get near the 0.6 recommended?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigG View Post
    Have a tank filled in the conservatory now, just waiting on the filter/heater arriving, should be here later today (thanks amazon!). I did half/half fresh water (filtered) and pond water. I presume I want the fish in there before turning on the heater?

    I dont have a tool for measuring salt, but know I have around 267L of water (from the size/depth), so was going to use that with the directions on the aquarium salt to dose, or is the package instructions not likely to get near the 0.6 recommended?

    With my usual caveat that I'm not in favour of adding salt to ponds as a permanent addition, it’s an excellent medication as a short term dip, or as a medium term treatment in a quarantine/hospital tank or even as a very temporary addition in the pond itself to treat a diagnosed problem where salt is the recommended treatment. Therefore, the students on my Water Quality course need to be able to calculate dosages for all circumstances where salt might be used so I calculated this for them to use whatever measuring system they prefer.

    If you prefer not to do maths then to calculate the concentration in your 267 litre tank, you simply need 2.67 times the rate for 100 litres. Take the concentration up slowly as I described on my website here:
    www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/koi_health.html#Saltanddropsy


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  9. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigG View Post
    Should I fully salt first, or fish first, then bring temp and salt level up?

    Presumably if I have it salted and up to temp before putting her in, then it will be a big shock?
    By referring to a big shock if you put the fish into heated and salted water, you've answered your own question.

    Dump the water that's in the conservatory then transfer the fish into fresh pond water which will obviously be at the same temperature as the pond. When it has settled, you can slowly begin to add the salt as I described in my article. If you wish to raise the temperature as well, you can do that at the same time but I wouldn't advise raising the temperature by more than 1°C per day.

  10. #8
    Got her in the tank, have turned the heater on now so she heats up with the water, and have added in some acriflavin.



    Now that she's in the wee tank I can see a red sore on her side near the tail, so likely what's caused it?

    How should I add the salt, gradually or all at once?

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  12. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigG View Post
    Got her in the tank, have turned the heater on now so she heats up with the water, and have added in some acriflavin.



    Now that she's in the wee tank I can see a red sore on her side near the tail, so likely what's caused it?

    How should I add the salt, gradually or all at once?
    Craig, with respect, I've answered that question twice by posting a link to an article on my site that tells you exactly how to add salt.

  13. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Craig, with respect, I've answered that question twice by posting a link to an article on my site that tells you exactly how to add salt.
    sorry ive been looking at the site on Mobile. its horrible.

    looked at the link now and see the recommendation of raising it in 0.5oz per gallon increments, upto 0.3%

    is that, all at once, to bring it upto 0.3 or, adding 0.5oz per gallon, over a period of hours? is that US or UK Gallon?

  14. #11
    from the table, with my 267L that would be around 400g of salt. and a total of 801g to get upto 0.6

  15. #12

  16. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post

    By referring to a big shock if you put the fish into heated and salted water, you've answered your own question.

    Dump the water that's in the conservatory then transfer the fish into fresh pond water which will obviously be at the same temperature as the pond. When it has settled, you can slowly begin to add the salt as I described in my article. If you wish to raise the temperature as well, you can do that at the same time but I wouldn't advise raising the temperature by more than 1°C per day.
    can you advise if there is a difference in aquarium "tonic salt" and the PDV salt you suggest? in terms of actual composition and its effects on the salinity? Im thinking the "tonic" part is just marketing... but want to be sure.

    I have measured out the 400G of salt into a 3gal bucket of water from the tank, so if it is just salt, then thats ready to go.

    Temperature wise outdoor pond temp is around 17, and i checked the temp of the water in the tank before transferring and it was at 18, felt that was safe enough to put the fish into.
    I have turned off the heater also, as you recommended 1degC per day, so will keep an eye on the natural temperature increase with it being indoors, once its above 20 I will turn the heater on to stabilise it overnight (heaters min temp is 20) and work upto 25deg

  17. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigG View Post
    from the table, with my 267L that would be around 400g of salt. and a total of 801g to get upto 0.6
    The table says that it takes 300 grams in 100 litres to give 0.3% so you need 2.67 times that in 267 litres which is 801 grams (800 is near enough).

    It takes 600 grams in 100 litres to give 0.6% so 2.67 times that is 1,600 grams (1,602) which as a double check is twice the 0.3% rate.

    The dropsy article says to initially raise the concentration to 0.3% then, 12 hours later, raise it 0.6%.

  18. #15
    Sorry - I've deleted a duplicated post


  19. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigG View Post
    can you advise if there is a difference in aquarium "tonic salt" and the PDV salt you suggest? in terms of actual composition and its effects on the salinity? Im thinking the "tonic" part is just marketing... but want to be sure.

    I have measured out the 400G of salt into a 3gal bucket of water from the tank, so if it is just salt, then thats ready to go.

    Temperature wise outdoor pond temp is around 17, and i checked the temp of the water in the tank before transferring and it was at 18, felt that was safe enough to put the fish into.
    I have turned off the heater also, as you recommended 1degC per day, so will keep an eye on the natural temperature increase with it being indoors, once its above 20 I will turn the heater on to stabilise it overnight (heaters min temp is 20) and work upto 25deg

    Yep "Tonic Salt" is a necessary marketing phrase that suppliers have to use before they can add the Koi Tax.

    My reply to your 400 gram calculation is in the post above.

  20. #17
    Thanks so much for taking the time to help out.

    I figured that's what the tonic branding was about but just wanted to check.

    Clearly I done goofed on the calculator.... I will add another 400g into the bucket before adding into her tank, I am going to add it later tonight so I can add the next dose tomorrow morning after 12 hours as you suggest.

    I've ordered another air pump also, as I only have a full size pond pump, or the little aquarium one I'm currently using. The full size one is far too violent for the little tank

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  22. #18
    I have added in the next 800g of salt this morning and she's still with us, swimming about.

    This afternoon we managed to hammock her to clean and seal with wound with Ulcer Swab and Wound Seal. it was looking better after a clean.

    I was concerned about the filtration and when ran a test, I have a spike in ammonia. I done a 6 Gal water change with more pond water, heating it up before adding it in, I adjusted the salt in the buckets also to replace what was coming out (28g per gallon) water was removed before added.

    Currently for the filters I have a pair of small Foam + "moving bed" filters. I kept the foam but replaced the other media with some K1 from my nexus. and I have a pair of 150L/h air pumps running the two filters and two air stones. but ive came to the conclusion that this isn't enough filter media to keep the ammonia in check. couldn't find anything locally so have ordered an external aquarium cannister filter.

    having run another test tonight, the ammonia is less but still not "safe" its a yellow/green, and presumably is going to deteriorate overnight.

    Any thoughts on how I can combat the ammonia? how is it normally deal with in hospital tanks during treatments? presumably just with a dedicated filter?


    In other news, rummaging in the old owners kit they left behind, I found a Koi Medic Salt Level meter. some fresh batteries and it seems to be working! tested the water and it was between .59 and .61 ppt.

  23. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Zeolite rings a bell. Try mankys Web page

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

  24. #20
    his site suggests not to use that when you are using salt as a treatment, but I've not found another suggestion on there about what to do in my situation at present

 

 
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