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  1. #1

    koi deep ulcers, flesh eaten away, downward spiral. urgent advice please

    can anyone help.
    I have large pond 5000 gal, 40 koi. water parameters normal.
    have had a lot of problems this year, with prazi resist flukes and water board started using chloramine without notifying. lost a lot of nice koi. thought everything was back to normal.
    every one appears fine with the exception of 2 koi who are very poorly with deep ulcers and flesh getting eaten away at an alarming rate.
    have had them out sedated treated with ulcer kit. but still getting worse. horrible to see and not knowing what to do. nice fish one has a deep ulcer in eye socket, getting worse, quite worrying. tried salt baths and salt and acriflavin baths.
    have been doing lot of big water changes, scrapes show nothing! salt in pond 0.1%, just used acriflavine in pond no affect.
    am thinking of trying pp dip or chloramine T dip next. both of which I am new to. would very much appreciate any thoughts, views, recommendations before I lose 2 very nice koi

    also forgot to add. the smaller fish has had his dorcel fin eaten away but also he has a large lump at his tail joint . looks like a large round lump under scales, no marks or discolouration lucks similar to a broken knuckle under the skin if that makes sense. swelling getting bigger every day. treated with antibacterial with no affect.


    Last edited by climbalot2004; 24-09-2020 at 05:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Not been a good year for a lot of us. Sorry to hear of your losses, been there myself this last few months.
    Hope someone will be along to offer some advice.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Koiz's Avatar
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    That doesn't sound good at all I'm thinking you may be at the stage of needing antibiotic injections to give this fish a chance of recovery. Topical applications clearly are not enough. Could you post some photos and share your location so that maybe someone can recommend a pond expert who could visit you and take a look? Is your pond heated, or can you stabilise the water temps so they don't drop in the coming weeks as temps plumet over night (eg: poly carb covers)? Or do you have a quarantine facility you can place your poorliest fish into?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  6. #4
    hi
    i live hartlepool, durham, north east.
    i have a 100 gal QT. I have put the smaller fish in there with smaller other ones was gonna bring indoors in winter. but is too small for my larger poorly fish with bad eye socket and wounds elsewhere.
    do you know how i would go about contacting a fish vet in the north east for antibiotics ?
    would you dip in pp or chloramine t to seal wounds i was thinking?

    not heated im afraid.
    will get a photo tomorrow when i see to him. he is going crazy now obviously not well

    might give him a quick salt and acriflavin bath before it gets dark see if it calms him down any
    Last edited by climbalot2004; 24-09-2020 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #5
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    Salt baths can do more harm than good due the rapidly changing osmotic pressure being very bad for fish. You could increase the salt concentration in your pond because 0.1% is too low to be doing very much. I would go up to 0.3% straight away and then consider slowly increasing towards 0.6% over a few days (but only do this if you know the volume of your pond accurately, and have a salt meter).

    I would definitely not stress the sick fish out any further with any baths of PP, CT or anything else.

    Ideally a bacterial culture should be done prior to deciding which antibiotics would be appropriate. A fish vet might opt to give a fairly broad spectrum antibiotic pending the culture results if it looks really bad.
    Its probably worth you giving a large local practice a ring, such as Bridge vet group (I think they do have a vet there who specialises in exotic species and might treat fish but you will need to ask, if not they may be able to recommend someone).

    You will have a major problem unfortunately in an unheated pond at this time of year- its hard below 15C to get wounds to heal, and antibiotics tend to be ineffective below these temps also.

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  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Koiz's Avatar
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    The temp was one of my biggest concerns. Are you able to cover your pond with poly carbonate covers? I'm unheated also, but I have 35mm poly on my pond (covers went on Tuesday night), and despite how cold the outside temps are getting at night currently, the pond is holding around 18c.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  11. #7
    hi no i dont have poly covers but will certainly look into it

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  13. #8
    hi feline
    thank you for that info.
    yes there is a bridge vet group near me.
    unfortunately the smaller red and white poorly fish was found dead this morning, see photos of legions.
    my main concern now is to try and save 2 other larger fish. a red and silver yamatonishiki with deep ulcers near eye socket and around other parts of body and fins
    and a medium size hariwake with a long side ulcer that has been healing for about 3 months but just not getting fully healed.
    nothing on scrapes. have removed plants to increase salt. had not increased levels incase i had to use chemicals that didnt like salt.
    my harriwake is about 14 inches am thinking maybe putting her in the qt with my smaller fish over winter? its too small for her (100 gal) but if it will save her life? was gonna bring it into my kitchen over winter it has air and filters
    i have acriflavin in water at the moment, 4 days but did 30% water change yesterday. will increase salt to .3% if you think so . i have never had it higher than that ever. is it ok to increase to 0.6% ?. if you think thats best i will order some more salt and get the salt level up to 0.6.
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    Last edited by climbalot2004; 25-09-2020 at 11:25 AM.

  14. #9
    hi koiz
    when you say poly carbonate covers do you mean the rigid sheets type ? dont suppose you know where to get them from. my pond is dog leg shape 23ft x 9ft, bit awkward shape for a cover

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by climbalot2004 View Post
    hi feline
    thank you for that info.
    yes there is a bridge vet group near me.
    unfortunately the smaller red and white poorly fish was found dead this morning, see photos of legions.
    my main concern now is to try and save 2 other larger fish. a red and silver yamatonishiki with deep ulcers near eye socket and around other parts of body and fins
    and a medium size hariwake with a long side ulcer that has been healing for about 3 months but just not getting fully healed.
    nothing on scrapes. have removed plants to increase salt. had not increased levels incase i had to use chemicals that didnt like salt.
    my harriwake is about 14 inches am thinking maybe putting her in the qt with my smaller fish over winter? its too small for her (100 gal) but if it will save her life? was gonna bring it into my kitchen over winter it has air and filters
    i have acriflavin in water at the moment, 4 days but did 30% water change yesterday. will increase salt to .3% if you think so . i have never had it higher than that ever. is it ok to increase to 0.6% ?. if you think thats best i will order some more salt and get the salt level up to 0.6.
    Yeah I took a look at the local vets in your area and suggested that one based on the facilities it has and who works there.

    Yeah that does look bacterial. I think you need to look at getting antibiotic injections for your remaining affected fish urgently.

    There is something you could consider to help confirm the diagnosis- you could submit one of your dead fish to Lincolnshire Fish Health for necropsy. Speak to them on the phone first and they can advise how to store the fish in the meantime.

    Regards to salt- 0.6% is safe because it’s still below the 0.9% in the fishes blood and tissues. Those levels are helpful for a fish with a deep ulcer that’s taking on board extra water through the wound, as it reduces stress on the kidneys to excrete the extra water. Salt is in itself antibacterial also (and helps damp down some parasite infestations too). You shouldn’t keep salt levels like that long term, but with an emergency situation like you have it would be a good option in my opinion.

    Will your 14” fish fit in your QT in the sense that it can turn itself round ok? Although it’s very small, it may stand a better chance in a heated environment and of course it’s much easier to add treatments and do water changes in a smaller tank like that.

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  17. #11
    hi
    thanks for that
    yes my qt is round 40inches x 40 inches 100gal. i have a number of new small fish in it 3 to 4 inches i was going to grow them on in the winter
    will get on with raising my salt levels.in the pond it should be ok with the acriflavin in the pond? been in 4/5 days now and diluted with water change yesterday.
    yes i think the salt will help . and thanks for advice about refraining from pp and salt dips .
    have seen the website on lincolnshire vets and will ring local vet re antibiotics. will try my own first jaqui patterson. they are very good and do exotic species i know.
    just a thought. do you think i should put my large koi in the qt over winter he is about 16inches. the qt is 42inch wide and 40 deep
    and would you treat the ulcers topically again with ulcer kit or leave them alone ?
    Last edited by climbalot2004; 25-09-2020 at 01:10 PM.

 

 

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