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Thread: Koi Dying

  1. #1

    Koi Dying

    I lost one fish yesterday, another fish has started showing the same symptoms.
    The fish are around 7-8 inches
    Tested the water and the quality seems fine:
    Nitrite = 0.25
    Ammonia = 0.1
    PH = 8.5
    The pond is 280 gallon

    My obseration on the fish that died was:
    At first just one pectral fin was not being used much (with no sign of pysical deterioration).
    Then the fish gradully isolated itself and didn't seem to eat much
    This continued for about a week then we found it dead at the bottom.
    When we got the fish out of the pond it looked fine.

    I have no facility to quarantine fish.

    Fish No 2 is showing exactly the same symtoms as the one that died, we removed it today and salt bathed it in 0.3 for 25 minutes then returned it to the pond, the fish has hidden itself away again and doesnt seem interested in eating.

    Please Help



  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    The readings are showing that action is required.
    Water changes, better filtration, what is the filtration?
    How many fish? 280 gallons is goldfish volume

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  4. #3
    Hi Simon
    Thanks for your reply
    On the test kit I have these readings are on the good side, I've also had water tested at aquatic centre, can you elaberater on why I need a water change, the pond has a biological DIY filter I made from a 50 gallon drum which I've had turning over for 10 weeks, I know it's small but I've just got 2 Koi and Goldfish, 12 fish in total.

  5. #4
    Ideally the ammonia and nitrite readings should be zero, your readings indicate that the filters are not dealing with the amount of waste produced (probably not matured yet).
    As stated water changes - 10-20% per day and stop feeding until readings go back to zero; then feed sparingly.
    Read up about "new pond syndrome" NPS.

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  7. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai bicolormoth's Avatar
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    hi Cltheob, welcome to the forum. sorry to hear you are struggling. we will try to help best we can.

    The pond folume is very small. too small to keep Koi successfully, as any changes to the water can have a big impact on your fish. larger volume ponds are easier to manage.
    Your pH is at the top safe limit, and with a high Nitrite reading is making things worse. , water changes will help IF your tap water is of a lower pH. so you need to test that. We need to figure out why your pH is so high. and get it down, but SLOWLY, as a quick change is also dangerous, a change greater than 0.2pH per 24hrs will stress your fish out, but this is an urgent situation so you might have to get it down by 0.5pH per 24 hrs which is going to take some time. A trickle in/out is best in this situation after an initial water change, you also need to use a Purifier filter, or dechlorinator chemical (Blagdon TapSafe) to remove any Chlrine/Chloramine that comes in from the tap. Salt Baths will not help as it doesn't change things in the pond itself. Have you tested for kH. most people don't bother but it is important as without it your Bio filters won't work. Try the water changes and let us know how you get on.
    5000g, Drum Filter/Gravity, + MBB, Skimmer-Sieve-Shower.

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  9. #6
    Morning bicolormoth

    I know the pond is small I just wanted a couple of small koi as they are so beautiful then maybe build a bigger pond one day as I don't have the space in my current garden.
    The PH level is high out of the tape, I live on the outskirts of London and the water is very hard, when I've asked at the aquatic centre they have told me there koi are in 8.0 PH?

    Is 0.25 really that high for Nitrite? this is a lot lower than a couple of weeks ago (about 1.0) wihich I have managed to reduce, the fish seemed happy then.

    I have not tested Kh but feel the Bio filter is working as the Ammonia level is stable and the Nitrite level is moving in the right direction (downwards)?

    Would it help if i added salt 0.1 ppm to the pond?

    I've always wanted the PH level at 7.5 but with such a high level coming out of the tape cant figure out how?

  10. #7
    Water change done, added NTLabs Tap water chlorine remover to correct measure
    keeping fingers crossed :-(

  11. #8

  12. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Koi Dying

    A nitrite reading of .25 is high yes and at 1.0 I would say this will cause deaths

    An issue that you will have with such small volumes of water is maintaining temperature and water chemistry

    The issue you are having with you koi could be historical from when your readings were high, therefore maybe the damage has already been done?

    If you look at the below graph from Manky sanke’s site it shows how temperatures and pH effect the maximum tolerable value of total ammonia

    Being at the high end of the scale with having a pH of 8.5 this hugely impacts the maximum.



    I believe higher temperature also increases the toxicity of nitrite. I am not sure on what the tolerable levels of nitrite would be but anything other than 0.1 should be dealt with sharpish.

    Nitrite will kill the fish by suffocation as the nitrite will enter the fishes bloodstream and prevent oxygen over time the fish will die.

    I would say do some reading, add oxygen to the pond if you don’t have any currently. And look into adding salt to the pond to remove the toxic levels of the nitrite.. this should only be a temporary solution while you get on top of the water quality.

    I would suggest stop/ reduce feeding also.

    I know I have mentioned it already but koi do not take kindly to temperature changes and with small volumes outside in our climate I would say is not sustainable

    Ammonia

    Above is a link to a lot of helpful resources


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk mi
    Last edited by Mikeh83; 28-08-2020 at 04:59 PM.

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  14. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    If the filter is 10 weeks old, assuming the pond is the same?
    Either way it's no time for the all the biological/chemical processes to become established.
    My pH was over 8.5 even over 9 at times, took around a year to settle at 7.6
    A small pond can be successfully managed over time but is best with small fish that don't have the capacity to outgrow it.
    Having said that, who hasn't seen a small pond with a massive fish that's been in it for years.

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Hiya cytheob, you’ve fallen into the trap that so many of us did originally, and been tempted by the beauty of koi into thinking that surely you must be able to keep just a couple of small ones in your goldfish pond.

    The journey generally progresses for many of us into building bigger and bigger ponds to accommodate them, as we start to realise that we had effectively just bought a baby elephant to keep in a dog crate.
    If enlarging the pond is not going to be an option for you (plus investing in expensive specialist equipment to keep them healthy), then it might be best to call it a day at this stage and not replace the fish you’ve lost.

    What test kit do you have? Any kit that doesn’t explain that both ammonia and nitrite are toxic waste products and shouldn’t be at detectable levels in your water is probably not a very good one.

    Dont worry about your pH itself- 8.5 is within the range that goldfish and koi can be successfully kept so long as it’s stable and the rest of the water parameters are good. You can only really lower the pH by running a reverse osmosis top up system, which is a big investment and not something most people want to be doing.

    The usual approach to unhappy fish is to fix the water quality first, and then if no improvement take mucus scrapes from the fish to check for parasites. I’m assuming you are not set up to do scrapes at this point. There are aquatics companies that can sometimes help with that at a cost. I would advise against throwing any random ‘cure all’ type products into the pond until you’ve identified what the issue is.

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  18. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KevT's Avatar
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    A possible fix, (possibly expensive unless you are a builder) would be to make the pond the full length of the available area + planter and take the depth up to 1 metre above ground and dig down below ground level as deep as possible maybe 500 mm.

    Pond volume is important and getting as much as you can will help even if this is all depth.

    18 foot long x 2 foot wide x 5 foot deep would give 1100 gallons - plenty big enough - possible filter upgrade as you need a way to collect muck then a filter with bacteria like a shower or fluid bed with air - adding bacteria bombs to get things going quickly before winter as I think the fish could suffer as the pond will freeze quickly being so low volume - I would suggest a cover too.

    KevT
    Last edited by KevT; 28-08-2020 at 08:06 PM.

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  20. #13
    Hi bicolormoth

    Did a 20% water change yesterday, how long should I wait until next one.

    Regards

  21. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by KevT View Post
    A possible fix, (possibly expensive unless you are a builder) would be to make the pond the full length of the available area + planter and take the depth up to 1 metre above ground and dig down below ground level as deep as possible maybe 500 mm.

    Pond volume is important and getting as much as you can will help even if this is all depth.

    18 foot long x 2 foot wide x 5 foot deep would give 1100 gallons - plenty big enough - possible filter upgrade as you need a way to collect muck then a filter with bacteria like a shower or fluid bed with air - adding bacteria bombs to get things going quickly before winter as I think the fish could suffer as the pond will freeze quickly being so low volume - I would suggest a cover too.

    KevT
    Thanks Kev

    Feeling a bit guilty now ( like s condemned these beautiful koi to death via my ignorance).

    I will take on board some of you suggestions, it’s not practical to implement all of them but a cover and a heater I can do.

    done a 20% water change, when can I do next one.

    Regard
    Last edited by Cltheob135; 29-08-2020 at 10:12 AM.

  22. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    A nitrite reading of .25 is high yes and at 1.0 I would say this will cause deaths

    An issue that you will have with such small volumes of water is maintaining temperature and water chemistry

    The issue you are having with you koi could be historical from when your readings were high, therefore maybe the damage has already been done?

    If you look at the below graph from Manky sanke’s site it shows how temperatures and pH effect the maximum tolerable value of total ammonia

    Being at the high end of the scale with having a pH of 8.5 this hugely impacts the maximum.



    I believe higher temperature also increases the toxicity of nitrite. I am not sure on what the tolerable levels of nitrite would be but anything other than 0.1 should be dealt with sharpish.

    Nitrite will kill the fish by suffocation as the nitrite will enter the fishes bloodstream and prevent oxygen over time the fish will die.

    I would say do some reading, add oxygen to the pond if you don’t have any currently. And look into adding salt to the pond to remove the toxic levels of the nitrite.. this should only be a temporary solution while you get on top of the water quality.

    I would suggest stop/ reduce feeding also.

    I know I have mentioned it already but koi do not take kindly to temperature changes and with small volumes outside in our climate I would say is not sustainable

    Ammonia

    Above is a link to a lot of helpful resources


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk mi
    Thank you this will come in useful

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  24. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cltheob135 View Post
    Thank you this will come in useful

    If anyone wants a copy of my ammonia chart and parameter guide that can be laminated for future reference, there is one in the document library on my website.

    Follow the instructions at the bottom of this page to download and print:
    Ammonia chart




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  26. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing..

    Do you have any specific details on tolerable levels for nitrite similar to the ammonia chart?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #18
    No, a chart isn't necessary Mike,

    The maximum tolerable level for total ammonia varies with pH and temperature so I calculated the chart of levels for all normal pond pH values and temperatures as explained in my article on the link you posted but, as shown in the parameter guide, the maximum tolerable level for nitrite is 0.2 mg/L.

    Ammonia

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  29. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Thanks.. I only asked as on your site you do mention that nitrite becomes more toxic as temperatures rise and also as pH falls..??


    Good water guide: pt 14


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  31. #20
    Yes, I researched that information for the article and you could allow higher values at lower temperatures and at higher pH values but the general consensus of opinion amongst koi physiology and health experts in the line of continuing research is that a lower value of 0.2 mg/L across the board is a safer maximum level to adopt.

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