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  1. #1

    koi ulcerated mouth side and fin

    hi can anyone help
    i have a 2ft kujaku. he has a large ulcer on his side but more concerned with ulcerated mouth, red and sore , few weeks not getting any better. difficult to treat. was thinking of pp dip/bath but not sure of dose.
    last 3 month have had problems with prazi resistant gill flukes and chilonodella.

    first treated with pond salt then acriflayvin twice 10 days apart in april, then fluke solve twice 3 weeks apart may/june did not kill flukes. then FMG (30% and 1.5%) 3 times 5 days apart and just finishing 2 courses of flubendazole 7 days apart

    have lost 9 fish , i think/hope parasites and flukes finally gone but need to urgently help my large kujaku with mouth ulcer can anyone recommend correct dose for kusuri pp dip please.

    thanks
    keith
    5000 gal pond(22500ltr), ph, ammonia normal, nitrite slightly high due to chemicals 0.25
    Large jap mat filters (could do with maturing bit longer) pumps totalling 43,000lph but due to depth would be nearer 30,000lph



  2. #2
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    1 gram to every 5 litres for no longer than 3 minutes. Make sure PP is fully dissolved. But the ulcers are probably better treated topically.

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  4. #3
    hi
    thankyou. have dabbed malachite on the side and fin ulcers but its the mouth ulcer i am more concerned with which is difficult to get to.
    could i ask what you might do ?

  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    I would sedate the koi, then dry off the area and use a ulcer cleaner to wash the wound before sealing it personally.

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  7. #5
    thankyou
    have never sedated before.
    how do you sedate koi?
    i have some oil of cloves but am scared of not doing it right.

    ......have just read threads on sedation and ulcer treatment.. have ordered the kusuri sedation/ulcer kit. scary but will have to do it. thanks everyone
    keith
    Last edited by climbalot2004; 24-07-2020 at 03:01 PM.

  8. #6
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    Hi sorry about delay in replying. The kusuri kit has roccal, anti bac and top coat sealer in it, it also has muisuzal (sedation) in it. Measure out the Muisuzal as described on bottle, when the fish is starting to roll over just try placing your palm under fish and gently lift, if it flaps about leave in a bit longer. Once its settled wrap in a wet towel. Dab dry affected area and then clean with roccal using cotton buds, use plenty perhaps dry it and apply again. Dry again then apply anti bac again use plenty. Allow a short period (2 minutes will do) for anti bac to work then apply top coat sealer, again give it a minute to dry. Then put fish back in to aerated water. I use a floating inspection net in the pond, gradually the fish will start to right itself keep an eye on it until its upright. Its ready to go back in to pond or isolation tank then. You need to make sure to remove any affected tissue with the buds and roccal. Duncan Griffiths book is a good source of reference for all this and is well worth getting.

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  10. #7
    hi twokoi
    thankyou will find your advice very helpful.
    my kusuri kit is coming monday. I gave my lge kujaku another salt bath yesterday because the last one perked him up but this time he appears to be getting weaker. i also noticed something i had never seen before. his big side ulcer has turned white. i gave it a good dab with malachite. im sure it would have been better for me to sedate and treat him earlier when he was much stronger. but even though he is getting weaker i think it will be still better to proceed with sedation/ulcer treatment has he wont get better otherwise?
    i was also pondering on moving him to my q tank with fresh water has my nitrite still 0.25 and struggling to get completely clear.I have added abou 8 pond bombs this year.
    my only concern is when i have moved fish to the QT previously they dont last long. think the added stress has an affect.

  11. #8
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    The wound turning white can be a sign of healing. The weakened fish may not cope with anaesthetic as well as it would when stronger but if left the outcome may be inevitable as you say. You could try putting it in to isolation with salt and acriflavin + heat, some say it helps ease the stress when in with another fish. If the the fish improves then the problem is solved. I have to set up isolation in a small show vat as i don't have a permanent isolation set up so don't use it much. But in the past have had some success when in with another fish. The other item I forgot to mention was oraheasive powder in the Kusuri kit it may not be worth using in the mouth area as may just fall out due to movement of the mouth but if it's not in a moving/flexing area it could be useful. It is used after antibac and before the top coat sealer. Are you sure the parasites you treated for have gone as this could be the route cause.

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  13. #9
    hi twokoi
    thankyou.
    have took a scrape off a goldfish today which shows nothing. i didnt want to unduly stress my kujaku.
    i have a 100gal spare tub. 3ft by 3ft i am going to put him in there today and get a scrape off him today. i normally keep it for salt baths and dips and the like. but his gills are working overtime, in and out. and all the other fish are breathing fine. so i do think it makes sense to remove him to total nil nitrite water (pond 0.25) with plenty of air. i cant heat it but the outside water temp is 15/16c at the moment. will put someone else in with him and see if he picks up for sedation tomorrow. the pond salt at the poment is .2% i will keep the qt the same. am not sure about the acriflavin? i have some but he has had that many chemical treatments in the past few weeks am thinking less might be more.
    i hope them persistant gill flukes have gone.nothing shown on 6 scrapes off dif fish in past week and a half.
    i have used orhesive powder before. its the soft fleshy tube from moth to lips which is inflamed.
    many thanks
    keith

  14. #10
    hi twokoi
    i was just thinking. last week i rubbed some neosporin ointment into my kujaku's side wound. i wonder if that helped it heal. only he wasnt sedated and he was wet and the ointment is the consistency of vaseline so i couldnt get a good contact and the mouth was almost impossible. but its supposed to be useful stuff for wounds and the like with 3 diff antibiotics

  15. #11
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    Hi The neosporin ointment isn't something i am familiar with, but if it has anti bacterial properties it may well have done the trick. I once got someone to come and take a look at an ulcer problem and he made a paste with oraheasive and PP and applied that, after first cleaning the wound up, it worked well. I think if you do isolate for a few days the Acriflavin would be at quite a low level so shouldn't be a problem. The only problem is if you have no mature filtration on the isolation you will need to do a small water change daily. So then it's difficult to work out how to maintain the level of medication in the isolation tank. The salt could be measured if you have a meter but the acriflavin would just be a case of working out how much you have changed and medicate to replace. With the infection being on the mouth as you describe the Oraheasive wouldn't be much use.
    Last edited by twokoi; 25-07-2020 at 05:34 PM.

  16. #12
    hi twokoi
    i lost my kujaku this afternoon before i had a chance to quarantine or sedate. he just went over on his side. tried to revive for an hour in the qt and air stones. am devastated, best fish i will ever have. did a scrape , nothing on it. gutted.
    thankyou for all your help, very much appreciated

  17. #13
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    Really sorry to hear that, we've all been there and it's always the best fish somehow.

  18. #14
    hi twokoi
    much appreciated
    thankyou

  19. #15
    hi twokoi
    would appreciate your thoughts on my pond. its still not right.
    have lost 11 fish in past 3 month. one a week despite all my efforts.
    5000 gal pond, 8ft, and 6ft multi bay filters and large vortex containing 6 sq mtrs of jap matting and 3 x 45000ltr pressure filters.
    pumps totalling 43000 lph
    ammonia 0, all water parametres normal accept nitrite 0.25. very hard water. was 60 koi now 50. jap matting 6month to 12 month old.
    feeding small amount of low protein food once per day.have used 10 pond balls in past 3 month.
    have took many many scrapes. had bad dose of prazi resistant flukes and chilodonella.
    have treated with 2 doses of acraflavin, 2 doses of fluke solve, 3 doses of FMG (30% 1.5%) and 2 doses of flubendazole(fluke M).
    has well has salt bath and acriflavin and salt baths throughout for the sick.
    am doing large water changes between treatments. pond salt at .2%
    have not found anything on scrapes for past 10 days.
    lge fish where flashing last night. thought i would do water change and scrapes and baths fot the two flashing . this morning one of my small 8inch gin rin hariwake was flashing like crazy. i got him out and discovered a huge ulceration along his side.
    will treat him with my new kusuri ulcer kit today and carry out a lge water change and salt bath for the two big ones flashing.
    despite my best efforts appear to be now plagued with ulcers

  20. #16
    am just scared am gonna lose them all.

  21. #17
    havnt burried my lge kujaku yet.

  22. #18
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    Hi this hobby often seems to have more problems than good times.
    Nitrite will make fish flash and always takes longer to go than ammonia. The pond bombs are good i understand that the Aqua source version has more of the beneficial bacteria within them than some other ones available. Have you had a look at the gills are they ok nice and red? The only reason I ask this is the only real bacterial problem i have had was bacterial gill disease. My fish had a few sores on them and fins going a bit ragged but this was just the obvious sign, the gills had started to show white patches on the red filaments. It was my Koi dealer who told me to check the gills and then diagnosed it from some photos i took. The other issue for you is the fact that after all the other problems the pond could do with a period of stability but you can't ignore (and lose fish) what's currently happening.

  23. #19
    thankyou for that
    very helpful
    i did a 20% water change yesterday and the nitrite dropped down to nil today but think its gonna be a constant battle with the filters till they fully mature.
    i sedated 3 of my fish for the first time yesterday which went well.and bathed a poorly fish for an hour at 9 oclock last night which looks much better today.
    think i will just have to keep up with regular 20% (1000gal) water changes and monitor closely and take scrapes regular.
    I will check the gills on my kujaku, and other fish when i can thankyou. he definately had a problem breathing rather than dropsey, he went rather quick and laboured.

  24. #20
    Member Rank = Sansai twokoi's Avatar
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    Glad things are looking a bit better. As long as the Nitrite stays down you could cut back on the water changes as the pond could do with a period of stability. Just keeping a trickle in-out should be enough.

 

 
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