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  1. #1

    Question What on Earth is going on with this fish?! (updated: please help!)

    Hi guys,

    I have a few things to ask the experts about my big poorly mirror carp please (I know she is not a beautiful koi but I love her!)

    1) She is 22 inches long and about 24-25 years old (as is the pond) and became very lethargic 2-3 weeks ago, stopped eating the fish food and got tons of tiny white spots on both sides all of a sudden, like a big stripe of dots. They looked like very large salt crystals but grew rapidly, so the guy at the koi shop didn't seem to think it was white spot and gave me an NT labs anti-fungus and parasite treatment. All the other fish have been fine, apart from one that I saw flashing once (ever). Towards the end of the treatment, the spots started to disappear. Most of these photos are from today, when the spots have really died down. What on Earth do you think it might be?

    If the spots don't totally disappear now, do I need to do the treatment again or might it take a while?

    IMG_20200615_124232 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200615_124214 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200615_124412 - Copy.jpg

    2) She has had these other fleshy lumps on her for months, possibly even longer, but they have become bigger recently, and a couple of others have popped up. Unlike the white spots, they don't look like something growing on her. Rather they look as if she has grapes inserted under her skin! They are mainly around the bum fin (you need to look almost underneath her) but she has a couple of raised patches on her back as you can see in the photos. Any ideas what they are?

    IMG_20200615_124452 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200614_202150 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200614_202309 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200615_124242 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200614_202049 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200615_180224 - Copy.jpg

    3) She lies in the sun at the top, on a shelf made for plants in a lot of the time, until she sees that you're there and scarpers. She doesn't gasp for air.

    IMG_20200615_124316 - Copy.jpg

    4) She has a larger white patch near her left gill that doesn't look like the other white patches.

    IMG_20200614_202045 - Copy.jpg


    I think her eyes have always bulged, and the black stripes down her side are old scars. She has had a red bellly for months, possibly longer.

    Apart from the NT labs anti-parasite and fungus, I have salted the pond. In the 6 weeks before this, I was changing about 20% of the water every couple of weeks (after I'd found out what to do). She ate twice when the blobs started to disappear but now isn't bothering.


    The pond has gone a bit greener since/murkier turning off the UV filters for the treatment, so can I can add something to treat this?


    There are 6 other fish:
    22 inch ghost koi
    14 inch grass carp
    2 x 7 inch goldfish
    10 inch goldfish
    6 inch sanke

    They've all been there for years, except the sanke which was added about 2 months ago.


    POND SET UP:
    No idea on specifics as it's an inherited pond, sorry. 1100 gallons ish. I know there are 2 biological filters, one with rocks and one with plastic bobbins, a skimmer, and a fuzzy white filter. It takes about 2 hours to cycle through.


    CHEMISTRY:
    A week ago, when the fish seemed more ill, these were the readings:

    pH 8.5 (this has gone up over a month from 7, I don't know why, what causes this?)
    KH 2
    GH 6
    Ammonia 0-0.1mg/l (closer to zero)
    Nitrite 0-0.1mg/l (closer to zero)
    Nitrate 1mg/l
    Phosphate 2mg/l

    Tap water:
    pH 7
    KH 3
    GH 4
    Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite 0
    Phosphate 4mg/l


    My last question is, I have some new fish in the pipeline. Do I need to push this back or is it OK now the spots are fading and the other fish are fine?


    Thanks for reading!


    Last edited by laulau; 18-06-2020 at 12:35 AM. Reason: clarity

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    No idea what it is and never seen that before, but hopefully someone else might know.

    The only thing I'd say is that it is not representative of a parasite and therefore I'd hold back on putting treatments in the pond without a proper I.D.

    Some of the spots have a waxy look about them so I wondered if it was a mild form of carp pox but this normally affects younger koi more than older ones but all ages can be susceptible to it and particularly during early spring. It doesn't look like your "traditional" carp pox but different fish come out with it in different ways and her tail does look to have a white tinge to it which could be mild carp pox. Some of the lumps also have a waxy appearance which again might be carp pox or something viral but it definitely isn't obvious from the pics.

    Therefore other considerations would be viral infection and/or mucus growths.

    In the photos her belly looks a bit reddish, might just be the pics, but that could be worth a closer look.

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  4. #3
    Thanks for the reply.

    Carp pox might make sense, yeah. I haven't touched the growths, although they do look like you could just yank them off. They looked hard at first like salt crystals but the bigger ones do look waxy and soft.

    I am wondering if the big (seemingly unrelated) lumps underneath her & the one on her back are tumours. She is very old and they have been there a while and not bothered her.

    I think she has had the red belly for a long time.

    Either way I'm worried because she seems lethargic and won't eat...

  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laulau View Post
    Thanks for the reply.

    Carp pox might make sense, yeah. I haven't touched the growths, although they do look like you could just yank them off. They looked hard at first like salt crystals but the bigger ones do look waxy and soft.

    I am wondering if the big (seemingly unrelated) lumps underneath her & the one on her back are tumours. She is very old and they have been there a while and not bothered her.

    I think she has had the red belly for a long time.

    Either way I'm worried because she seems lethargic and won't eat...
    Yes, something isn't right if her behaviour isn't normal.

    Again, I'm only filling up space until someone can come along with a better idea as I am just guessing.

    Lets assume it is pox for a minute. As the weather warms up the Koi immune system kicks in and deals with it quite well, no treatment required.

    But I did see a thread on here before where the pox got worse on someone's koi despite the warm weather. For some reason the immune system wasn't shifting it.
    Later on it was discovered their Koi had parasites.

    I concluded that the parasites were doing so much damage that the immune system was too weak to deal with the pox like it normally would.

    So whilst I don't even know if that is Pox on your Carp (but the lumps themselves are almost certainly not parasites), it is yet another consideration that underlying parasites are preventing the immune system from coping.

    The only way to clarify that with any certainty would be to do a scrape and look under the microscope. This is the first thing most of us do when something is afoot and the cause cannot be attributed to anything obvious like water parameters.

    You did say the NT Labs treatment seemed to help the spots go down - that could boost this theory. Scraping is the only definitive way to find out so if there is something there you can properly target it.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 16-06-2020 at 09:29 AM.

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  7. #5
    Thanks for the reply. Were those readings OK then?

    Unfortunately my pond seems to have gone completely FUBAR.... as I see it there are several issues, as a newbie I'm not really sure what's going on.

    The white spots started to clear up. However, today I noticed that the newest (2 months ago) little sanke had bulging eyes and when I took her out, I noticed she had raised scales on one side. She also had red spots on her mouth and a white fluffy thing hanging off it. She eats and moves around fine and is not isolating at this point. The other fish looked fine.

    sanke - Copy.jpg
    Attachment 32463

    To me this looked like dropsy. I had seen one other fish flash and another come and gulp air. I'll be honest, I panicked and started to drain the water, around 40%, and dechlorinate the refill, especially because the water had started getting murky since I'd had to turn off the UV with the last treatment. There is foam on the top that looks like this:

    IMG_20200617_185451 - Copy.jpgAttachment 32464

    However, when I started to drain the water, the big fish that's been having all the problems freaked out because she was sitting on a shelf and did a sort of roly poly into the pond. I was completely shocked because I finally saw her underside and it looked bruised and terrible - really red and purple. Then she started floating on her side suddenly. The fish she hangs out with all the time kept trying to bump her from underneath. She would get right and swim with him for a bit and then go back to floating on her side. She looks absolutely dire. I can also see the lumps underneath much more clearly and have absolutely no idea what they are or if they are related.

    IMG_20200617_193621 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200617_193504 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200617_193344 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200617_192016 - Copy.jpgIMG_20200617_192004 - Copy.jpgAttachment 32465Attachment 32466Attachment 32467Attachment 32468Attachment 32469

    A couple of hours later and she is alternating between being upright on her shelf and floating on her side with the flow of the water (I'd think she was dead if her mouth wasn't moving). If she makes it through the night should I euthanase? Or is there something I can do? Feeling so guilty and sad for her.

    I have acriflavin but it's been thundery and humid.

    (Looking into microscopes for future)

    Please help anyone!!!
    Last edited by laulau; 19-06-2020 at 11:57 AM.

  8. #6
    It's been a day now and she is still just floating on her side and letting the water pull her around the pond in a circle. Occasionally she seems to "wake up" and right herself, like when another fish bumps her, but it doesn't last long and she's otherwise totally listless.

    Really hoping someone here recognises any of this... the redness (I am assuming bacteria) .. the weird lumps (tumours??).....

  9. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Unfortunately the photos aren't displaying on my phone so I can't see them.

    The bacterial angle sounds plausible based on the symptoms described and the dropsy as well which isn't always bacterial but can be.

    Sadly once the eyes are bulging it is very difficult for a Koi to make a full recovery from dropsy and most of the time they will die. Antibiotics can only be administered with professional help to identify if bacteria is the cause and what type you are treating for. The only realistic thing we can do for dropsy is to put the fish into a quarantine vat and gradually salt the water up to 0.6% and heat the water gradually. I heat up to 28C on the belief that bacterial dies at that temperature but I don't know if that's an old wives tale because when I've done that it is still 50/50 whether the fish survives and recovers.

    Your water parameters are currently perfect, KH is low but not dangerous and as long as you have KH in your water supply and do regular water changes you will be fine. That is not to say water quality is not the cause of your problems if it's possible that you had a blip and missed it for a period of time (common in spring).

    The main things, in this order that I would say mostly lead to fish losses are:
    Water quality
    Parasites
    Bacterial infections.

    So the next thing on the list is to do skin scrapes on the koi and check under microscope for parasites. If you don't have the equipment or knowledge to do this then maybe another member nearby can come and help of you post your location, or search for a nearby koi Dealer who can or knows someone who can do a home visit and do a full health check.

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  11. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    I can t get the photo s either.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  13. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Sim's Avatar
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    I agree with RS.
    The koi with dropsy heat salt I would also add Acriflavin.
    The bigger koi may have an infected/ruptured eggs, my thinking behind this is the later post where you say she rolled over and has bruising underneath it tend to do that as it developed.
    the other lumps as RS say may be carp pox but that the immune system can’t cope with.
    the lack of balance is really the final stages before death
    if it is this there is nothing you can do for the koi other than put it down.

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  15. #10
    Thanks for the replies guys, I will try to sort those photos out in a minute.

    The large fish is still on her side, still breathing. She occasionally rights herself but it takes some effort so she spends most of the time on her side now.

    Regarding the white lumps.. they have actually pretty much gone now.

    I know she looks like she is possibly fighting a bacterial infection with the redness in the belly or does have some sort of illness but I am convinced that the reason she is floating is because she swallowed a bunch of air (bear with me here!!!). She likes to sit on a shelf, and when I started draining the pond for a large water change, she didn't seem to realise straight away (I thought she would move right away but she didn't). When she did realise she freaked and completely flipped, sort of jumping out of the water and rolled over into the deeper water.. she has been on her side since the second that happened (1.5 days ago).

    If this is indeed the case, is there any way I can get this air OUT? I did see a video of someone "burping" a carp (never thought that one would end up in my internet history) and I have heard things about feeding them peas.

    I know she looks bad but especially with what Sim said about the eggs and the bruising.. it would make sense that she is like that underneath because she is a big girl and she has had at least some redness there for several months. I just didn't realise how bad it was until she rolled over, although the redness is worse recently. Although saying that, some of the bumps are sort of on the tail...

    IMG_20200618_184049-1 - Copy.jpg

    I have started adding salt, she seems more "alive" today, despite her position.

    Can you see the photos in this and my other posts above now please?

    That photo is not very good sorry but her underside looks like giant bubble wrap.. except the bubbles look hard.

    As you can tell I am not sure I am ready to give up on her just yet since thinking about when the floating actually started happening.

    (I am buying the apex practitioner and associated stuff today for this and inevitable future issues)
    Last edited by laulau; 19-06-2020 at 12:05 PM. Reason: photos

  16. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Sim's Avatar
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    I think the other lumps are secondary, looking at the pic I would still say egg bound.
    if you run your hand over her under side a press against she is it soft like normal or is it hard.
    generally it starts off red and then changes to look more like it’s bruised as it develops.
    If it was air or a bladder issue I don’t think you get the bruised look.

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  18. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sim View Post

    The bigger koi may have an infected/ruptured eggs, my thinking behind this is the later post where you say she rolled over and has bruising underneath it tend to do that as it developed.
    .
    Exactly the first thing I thought when I logged in via PC and saw the photos.

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  20. #13

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Exactly the first thing I thought when I logged in via PC and saw the photos.
    Thank you both.

    I had actually never touched her before so I can't really compare. She never gets netted up either so it's probably been stressful for her.

    Her sides felt soft and the bubble/blister looking things also felt soft. What does this mean?

    When I look at photos of egg bound fish, their abdomen seems to be big and round but smooth. My fish has grape-like bumps all underneath her. In fact, most of the bumps are between her pectoral and pelvic fins. She has even got some on her back and tail now.

    She is still just floating on her side and breathing. I have nudged her under the water a few times so that her skin doesn't dry out. She does seem to be able to right herself or swim down for a few seconds but doesn't bother.

    I was advised by a koi dealer to up the salt to 0.6% and not sold any treatments. At the moment, it is around 0.4% as I am raising it over 3 days (I assume this is the right thing to do). However, I still have to clean the filters and emptying the Eazypod and then topping up the pond again will mess with my calculation of the concentration. Does anyone know of a good saltmeter to buy?

    Unfortunately I have no means of heating up the little fish in a tank. I am assuming I can't add Acriflavin as the salt is no longer at "tonic level"?

  21. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Sim's Avatar
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    Perhaps others could comment or have some ideas.
    salt and acriflavin are fine, it’s what i would use if I had a koi with dropsy (and heat if possible).
    but as RS says there’s only really a 50/50 chance it will live.

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  23. #15
    Thanks Sim.

    Yesterday, I took the little koi out to see if she was any better as it was so difficult to see her in the pond with being so small. In 2.5 days her fin had completely disappeared and she had big red, I am assuming, ulcers underneath that I just couldn't see from above. It's so frustrating how both of them have had issues underneath because I don't handle the fish with not wanting to cause stress, but the issues have gotten worse without me being able to see.

    I put her in a separate tank with an airstone and NT labs bacterad but within an hour she lost all balance, her mouth started shaking and she died. She had a split fin when I got her 4 weeks ago, which I treated at the time, but I guess she never recovered.

    My big fish is still on her side. I have draped a soft net over her, one of the ones that's mostly cloth and tiny holes, so that she doesn't dry out. Her best pal occsionally barges her and "frees" her, after which she swims for a few seconds and then goes back to floating on her side. She is just breathing normally, but very placid/tired - lets you put her in the net. She does seem to have slightly more energy than yesterday.

    I don't know what to do to get her swimming the right way up. The small white growths are pretty much gone, but the bumpy and red belly is still there. I have upped the salt in the pond to about 0.4%. Please can someone tell me how much salt I should have in the pond at this time?

    I have also treated the pond with NT labs Bacterad. The fish don't seem to want to eat, except the other big one who eats a bit.

    I wish she was small enough to take to the vet, but then again the nearest fish person is an hour away! I watched the fish vet (and several of his followers) on YouTube put a syringe in a fish to remove some of the excess air in the swim bladder. One of them killed their fish though by using too much anaesthetic. Has anyone here ever had success treating swim bladder issues?

    I have obviously postponed the order of fish I made before all this happened. How long do you need to wait with something like this before new fish can be introduced? It's sod's law.

  24. #16
    Here is a photo of the little one that died. It looks terrible, how I wish I had put her in a small tank to keep an eye on.

    Does this look bacterial?

    IMG-20200620-WA0006 - Copy.jpg

  25. #17
    Well the big mirror carp just died.

    I went out to find her best pal nudging her. It was really sad actually, I didn't realise they were such social creatures until recently. When I was taking her out to bury her, he followed her all round the pond and just watched me lift her out. He spent the last few days nudging her whenever she got stuck on something and getting her under the water again, poor guy. Then he would sort of guide her around the pond with the flow of the water.

    Her belly was so pink and just seemed to spread. I guess I was just too late with the bacterad. It is so disheartening. She was always my favourite, even though she was plain, dark and difficult to see. I used to enjoy watching her loom out of the depths when I was a kid.

    Thank you Sim and RS2000 for your comments. I am surprised no one else here had apparently seen anything like that before as she seemed to have 3 different issues.

    Do I need to treat the pond with bacterad again to protect the other fish? There are 5 fish and only 2 or 3 of them are eating the food.

    RIP Tilly, you were one great big tough old girl.

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  27. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Really sorry to hear that you lost her. It's possible that it was her time and even if you'd suspected issues earlier on any help you gave may have just delayed the inevitable.

    However with other koi showing issues and the loss of the small koi it is clear that something isn't right.

    Bacterad isn't the first thing I would turn to, and I wouldn't know if it's helping or not.

    The most important thing at the moment is to scrape and scope to identify any potential parasites, and I know you are working towards this.

    Until that point and bearing in mind you already have salt in the pond then yes I would say continue up to 0.6% because it won't do any harm but may well at least slow down the cause of your issues.

    Just be aware that if you do find a parasite under microscope that the appropriate treatment may not be compatible with salt so be prepared to have to change a lot of water regularly to remove the salt.

    On the other hand, 0.6% salt might fix the problems so it can work both ways.

    In the mean time all you can do is keep testing your water for ammonia and nitrite etc, keep doing partial water changes (and doing the appropriate calculations to maintain salt at .6% until you are closer to finding the actual culprit).

    If your scrapes don't reveal any parasites then things become a little more complicated in establishing the original cause and understanding the bacterial issues your pond may have, but they are discussions for another day.

    Maintaining the salt levels (this is a short term fix), and scraping and scoping are now you're immediate priorities.

    The latter may take some practice but there's plenty of YouTube videos that can help, and if you're new to using a microscope make a start by collecting samples of muck from around the edges of the pond and filter to help get used to the microscope controls. Your eyes will be opened by the amount of life you discover in pond water!

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  29. #19
    Thank you RS2OOO.

    The bacterad was just what the guy at the second shop gave me. I have noticed recently the only big koi left has started flashing. I go out to look at the pond several times a day to observe for 5-10 minutes and I might see him do it once a day, just turn on his side at the bottom while swimming. He still eats a lot but yesterday he spat half of it out. This is all signs of parasites, right? Today he's fine, I would say, though there is less interest in food from the fish, although they seem to munch along the bottom of the pond a lot and move around OK.

    Test 18/6
    pH 7.5
    KH 3
    GH 5
    Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate 0mg/l
    Phosphate 4mg/l

    I salted more at that point and then took the readings yesterday (22/6)
    pH 7.5
    KH 3
    GH 6
    Ammonia 0mg/l
    Nitrite 0.1 - 0.2 mg/l
    Nitrate 4mg/l
    Phosphate 2mg/l

    As you can see, nitrites and nitrates have increased since salting the pond. Is this normal?

    Unfortunately the microscope order is delayed due to a lack of planes. I should be OK using it as I have to use microscopes at work. I just need to learn what the different parasites etc look like now.

    I tested the oxygen today for the first time. At 5pm it was only 2mg/l at 19 deg C. At 8pm it was probably 4mg/l at the same temperature. I understand this to be low (?) and am going to find out this evening what the best aerator is for the size of my pond. My dad had connected a tube to stop the water from dropping into the pond from a height and causing bubbles so I disconnected this to give more oxygen for the time being, but that was before I took the tests! The fish have always seemed lethargic to me, definitely nothing like people's videos I see with really active fish in clear water. I wonder if this is why.

    The salinity meter arrived today, although it's only accurate to +/- 1ppt, it was the best I could find in a hurry. It came out at between 0.4 and 0.5%, indicating the pond is probably smaller than I thought as I was expecting it to be less with having cleaned the filters and topped up the pond. I was going to use it to find out the actual volume but I couldn't as the filter needed cleaning so badly...

    Which brings me onto my next point.. the water is so murky right now. In the last 7 weeks or so, the UV has probably been off for 25-30 days in total with different treatments I tried for the dead fish. But it's never EVER been as crystal clear as the videos I see of people's ponds. I don't know how much difference the UV makes? I am curious if the equipment I have is sufficient. Freddy suggested I post photos of it to the forum and people can help me identify what it all is, so I will go and create a thread about that now...

    I left the salt as it was as I understand that raising it can cause the oxygen to drop further, or should I add salt to 0.6% tomorrow?

    Thank you again!!!

  30. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Laulau,

    Water parameters are fine. I don't know if salt would cause the fluctuations you've seen because every pond reacts differently to changes, but still, the levels are low enough not to worry.

    A good UV will simply stop the water going green with algae, and not much else. I'd go with Fred's suggestion to post pics of the filtration, although it sounds like the filters have done well so far, and changing them would probably only be required if you're having consistently bad water readings, or if you want to invest in filtration that keeps your pond crystal clear all year round.

    It is your call regarding the salt levels. Maybe keep them at 0.6 until you get the microscope delivered and can identify what parasites are causing the problems you've got, just be prepared to change a lot of water out to reduce the salt if a parasite is found and requires chemicals that can't be used with salt in the water. Remember that every extra day you wait for this microscope is an extra day that parasites might be reproducing in large numbers making your fish more sick and more at risk of dying (assuming the cause is determined to be parasites).

    Spitting food out is a symptom of a fish that is full up and can't eat anymore (not common), or a problem with the gills (common).

    Spitting food is an issue I've had to deal with a lot on my own Koi. Main causes in order of likelihood are:


    Gill Flukes
    Costia in the gills
    Chlorine in water
    Bacterial infection in the gills
    Other parasites in the gills
    Ammonia burning the gills.
    Some other chemical affecting the gills.

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