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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Could really do with some help/advise.

    Hi, my first post and it's one asking for help.

    I've got some very poorly fish, a number of them are on their sides and others just very listless fins clamped etc.

    A little back ground:
    I've kept koi for years, some of my fish are over thirty years old. My pond has been trouble free for years. Anyway, a couple of weeks back I decided to treat myself to some new fish. Went to a reputable dealer and got five new ones.
    A few days later I noticed the little ones were flashing a bit and then started jumping frequently. Soon after the other fish were displaying the same symptoms.
    Most of my fish now look very poorly.

    I suspect the fluctuating temperatures of a couple of weeks back and maybe some over enthuiastic feeding may have caused problems but I don't know.

    Years ago I had a similar situation and salt treatment did the trick. So I've ordered a 25kg bag that should be here tomorrow.

    Having said that, I did give a couple of the new ones a salt dip a couple of days back but there is no improvement.

    Using test kits last night showed the following: PH 8. Ammonia 0.25-0.5 ppm. Nitrite 0. Phosphate 5.0 ppm.


    I must admit that my filters were in need of a clean, so I've done that, hoping to get the Phosphate level down.




    That's where I'm at now. Any pointers or advice would be appreciated. Feeling very glum and concerned. It's just so depressing seeing some of my big old fish in such a distressed state.


    Last edited by g mac; 14-07-2020 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Sansai m00ny's Avatar
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    Hi, what size is your pond, how many fish and what sort of filters are you running? A combination of more fish and feeding could be too much for your filter to cope with, especially at the time of year where the beneficial bacteria count might be lower coming out of the colder months.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00ny View Post
    Hi, what size is your pond, how many fish and what sort of filters are you running? A combination of more fish and feeding could be too much for your filter to cope with, especially at the time of year where the beneficial bacteria count might be lower coming out of the colder months.

    Sorry, forgot to quote size. Pond is around 8000 litres. There were a dozen fish and then added the five newbies.

    My filters are old school and will probably be mocked now. I built them about twenty five years back. First filter is a small settlement section, then brushes. Second filter is three layers of foam and under that a plastic filter medium (can't recall the name now). Central heating pump moves the water back to the pond and via a u.v.

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  6. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion anne's Avatar
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    Can you get a photo up...……...a picture paints a thousand words mOOny's right, the more information you
    can give the better, don't be shy about your filter system, its served you well so far and might not be anything to do with
    the problems you are having now.... you have plenty of oxygen going into the pond don't you ? what with this warmer
    weather. Somebody will be along soon to give advise I'm no expert but they are...………. Good luck

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  8. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Sansai m00ny's Avatar
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    Don't worry about filters being old school If they worked for all this time with little issues. They could have been blocked, holding a lot of waste if they hadn't been cleaned for a while though. Your ammonia isn't particularly high but the fact you have some and 0 nitrite is why I question your filters bio capacity, are you able to test for nitrate? I guess its possible your filter is ok and its purely a parasite problem I'm not clued up enough about it to offer more advice but hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge can help.

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  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne View Post
    Can you get a photo up...……...a picture paints a thousand words mOOny's right, the more information you
    can give the better, don't be shy about your filter system, its served you well so far and might not be anything to do with
    the problems you are having now.... you have plenty of oxygen going into the pond don't you ? what with this warmer
    weather. Somebody will be along soon to give advise I'm no expert but they are...………. Good luck
    Thanks, I'll get some pics sorted.

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  12. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KevT's Avatar
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    Hi Buddy

    This happened to me two years back - I'd had 6 fish in my pond for two years no problem, went out with a mate and got talked into getting a koi as the deal was for two fish and my mate wanted a new fish. I thought okay I've heard a chagoi is good to calm the koi and make the koi tamer - it was only a small fish and I introduced it as the weather was warming up and pond was at the same temp as the dealers pond. Within a few days the chagoi had white spots and so then over the next few days all the rest got white spots on their fins. I used Blagdon Anti-parasite pond treatment as instructed by my local koi centre and it took a week of treatment as instructions on the bottle. The fish flashed constantly on the bottom drain and sat on the bottom with fins clamped. The treatment takes the white spot out at all their stages egg larver and adult and so you need to get the doses exact to the water volume. I think introducing new fish directly into the pond without quarantine is very dangerous as older fish have reduced immune systems and can get stressed by new fish competing for food ect. This can happen in fishing ponds where new fish stocks adversely effect the existing pond stock even in the wild. I would suggest contacting your local koi centre and ask them if they will scrape a fish and diagnose the issue / offer advise on treatment. This is why visiting your local koi centre for bits is good as you can get a lot of help, I buy my food there and it costs a few pounds more, but advise is always on tap.

    Good Luck

    KevT
    Last edited by KevT; 26-05-2020 at 10:00 PM.

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  14. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Here's a list of some possible causes.....


    1) The temp fluctuations you refer to, although probably not likely if symptoms only started when adding new fish.

    2) 0.5 ammonia along with a pH over 8 can cause koi to flash/jump/scrape. This is easily sorted through water changes so stop feeding and get this level down to zero and see what happens.

    3) The new Koi may have brought parasites with them. Only a mucous scrape and viewing under a microscope will determine if they have and what parasites you may need to treat for. If its a reputable dealer ring them up and ask them if they've had any issues or if they had to treat your fish with something during the quarantine period. Hopefully the dealer will be honest and it could be possible some parasites survived the quarantine.

    4) Finally there is a phenomenon I've heard about a couple of times before and its happened to me as well. If you have a closed system of fish for many years and suddenly add new fish, those new fish may bring pathogens that your fish have no immunity against. The outcome is that your fish become sick and possibly start dying but no cause can be identified even under a microscope. Meanwhile the new fish seem to be fine and aren't affected.


    Whenever you add a new koi to an established pond, whether it be a 6" tiddler or a 80cm monster, the whole dynamics of the entire system change, and sometimes strange things can happen.

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  16. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. It seemed that some of the fish were improving last night. I've not fed them for a few days now but they were up and waiting for food. I didn't feed them.
    This morning some look improved, swimming normally, fins not clamped. Others though seem worse. Three of the older residents (Sanke, Kohaku Bekko) all about 50-55cm on their sides, on the surface. They do periodically right themselves and swim around a bit before drifting back up.

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  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Hi mate don t add salt to the pond. Until a few fish have been scraped and you find out what is causing it.
    Some treatments you cannot have salt in the pond.
    As RS said keep water changing and less feed.
    Have you got enough air going into the pond.
    Your filters have done the buisness over the years. So I would nt have thought that was the problem. Give them a good clean though.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  20. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Good point about the air Fred. It crossed my mind and I just came back to say, but you beat me to it.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  22. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Good point about the air Fred. It crossed my mind and I just came back to say, but you beat me to it.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    My air pump packed up on my qt grow on last week. And 3 of the fish where floating belly up. So replaced air pump. With one I had spare. They was fine a few hours later.That's what made me say it really.
    Two minds think a like lol.
    Could really do with some help/advise.Could really do with some help/advise.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  23. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    Hi mate don t add salt to the pond. Until a few fish have been scraped and you find out what is causing it.
    Some treatments you cannot have salt in the pond.
    As RS said keep water changing and less feed.
    Have you got enough air going into the pond.
    Your filters have done the buisness over the years. So I would nt have thought that was the problem. Give them a good clean though.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    Thanks for taking the time to reply.
    I cleaned the filters yesterday.
    Plenty of air: 4 x air stones in pond.

    Too late re the salt. It came early on this morning and I've since added it.
    It has certainly livened them up. Most of them are now swimming about and acting more normally. The three that were on their sides this morning, are now swimming but somewhat erratically and sometimes bumping into the pond walls.

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  25. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Really appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice and tips., this has been so stressful and depressing. Still think I'm going to lose some fish.

    Will get in touch with the dealer tomorrow, as they are not open on today.

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  27. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion anne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne View Post
    you have plenty of oxygen going into the pond don't you ? what with this warmer
    weather. ...………. Good luck
    Cough, Cough !!!!!! Lar, lar, lar, lar,...………………


    Fred - RS, put yer glasses on .

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  29. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    My air pump packed up on my qt grow on last week. And 3 of the fish where floating belly up. So replaced air pump. With one I had spare. They was fine a few hours later.That's what made me say it really.
    Two minds think a like lol.
    Could really do with some help/advise.Could really do with some help/advise.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    My reason for saying was because I treated with FMG yesterday and this morning a few were hanging at the surface. Added more air and they were fine after 30 minutes.

    I really thought I already had enough air, but obviously not.

    Was it the Jebao that packed up? I've been thinking about getting one. My Charles Austen is solid as a rock, but only 60-80 lpm. If I get rid of moving bed and go solo on the Anoxic then I probably wouldn't need a bigger pump.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  31. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne View Post
    Cough, Cough !!!!!! Lar, lar, lar, lar,...………………


    Fred - RS, put yer glasses on .
    Don't forget that we are men.

    If we read 5 sentences only 3 of them will stick Could really do with some help/advise.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  33. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g mac View Post
    Really appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice and tips., this has been so stressful and depressing. Still think I'm going to lose some fish.

    Will get in touch with the dealer tomorrow, as they are not open on today.
    I think getting in touch with someone who can do a scrape is your best option at the moment.

    But then they may not want to treat the pond with anything until you get the ammonia and parameters sorted first.

    When trying koi it's worth owning your own microscope. Around £120 thereabouts or half that on eBay 2nd hand.... Sounds a lot for something you'll rarely use but it's likely cheaper than replacing 1 or 2 dead koi and going through the upset that comes with that.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  35. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    My reason for saying was because I treated with FMG yesterday and this morning a few were hanging at the surface. Added more air and they were fine after 30 minutes.

    I really thought I already had enough air, but obviously not.

    Was it the Jebao that packed up? I've been thinking about getting one. My Charles Austen is solid as a rock, but only 60-80 lpm. If I get rid of moving bed and go solo on the Anoxic then I probably wouldn't need a bigger pump.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    No mate that jabeo is still running brilliantly. On my nexus.
    It was another of my ea pumps. An ea 70 I think it is. Over heated. And stopped.
    There crap in my opinion ea air pumps.
    Fred

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  37. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I think getting in touch with someone who can do a scrape is your best option at the moment.

    But then they may not want to treat the pond with anything until you get the ammonia and parameters sorted first.

    When trying koi it's worth owning your own microscope. Around £120 thereabouts or half that on eBay 2nd hand.... Sounds a lot for something you'll rarely use but it's likely cheaper than replacing 1 or 2 dead koi and going through the upset that comes with that.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Well said

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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