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  1. #1
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Koiz's Avatar
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    Exclamation Thrichodina, Skin Flukes and now Costia. Help please!

    Hi Folks,

    First-time poster seeking advice!

    Background: In 2017 we refurbished our garden and turned our hole in the ground pond that had become a haven for unwanted fish, into an 11,500L above ground, fibre glassed pond. Having wanted a koi only pond for years, I found an idyllic forever home in a managed lake for all the Goldies and Orfe which left me with 4 Koi (68cm Gin Matsuba, 58cm Purachina, 50cm Yamabuki and 48cm Doitsu Kin Matsuba) all with dubious heritage from Garden Centres. In June, hubby bought me two tosai (Showa and Hariwake Matsuba) from Maidenhead Aquatics (MA). We were assured that these were 1) Japanese Koi imported via Ornafish 2) fully quarantined and treated for parasites and worms. However, I decided to Ďquarantineí them in a 60L Aquarium Iíd never used, with daily water changes and having seen no signs of anything untoward, they went into the pond after two weeks. All looked fine and we went away for 4 days only to come back to my original koi laying clamped finned on the bottom. Water params were fine but I did a 20% water change and next day added 380g AquaSource Resolve to knock back early blanket weed growth.

    The following day, the big Koi started to flash so did another 20% water change (nitrates 30, but were high in source water), and got my pond builder to do a scrape which turned up one dead Fluke (Gin Mat) and one live Trichodina (Kin Mat). This was treated with NT Labs Eradick for 5 days with UV off, during which time the baby Matsuba jumped into my gravity skimmer and, though rescued and swam off, died the following day. The skimmer is now netted! After Eradick I added 600ml of EA Pure Pond to Nexus.

    Couple of weeks later on 12th July, having purchased a microscope, I did my own scrape on my Gin Mat and found Trich and two Skin Flukes. I did another 20% water change with Chlor Go and added 46g Fluke Solve the next day. After 2 days Koi were still flashing so I took advice from the very helpful Fiona MacDonald who explained my Draco Drum had likely removed the treatment so it hadnít worked. Further advice from my local Koi Importer, JKI, that UV is best turned off for all treatments. I was advised to treat with Potassium Permanganate at 2ppm (23g) for 2 successive days with UV off which we did 3 days after the first failed Fluke Solve. This was left to neutralise (no H202 used).

    The UV went back on 9 days later, but Koi started flashing again so on 1st Aug, 14 days after end of PP and 18 days after first Fluke Solve, the remaining Solve was added - 52g into Pond (circulated via water blade) and 2g into Nexus (with bottom drain off). This was left like this for 12 hours before the filter was put back on. All seemed to pick up, but baby Showa was extremely withdrawn, hanging head down in a corner. He was so small (only 15cm) compared to the other Koi and I think he was feeling lonely after his buddy had died. Water params were still fine (I even tested Copper, Iron and O2 as Iíd purchased the JBL TestLab), so JKI did more scrapes which were all clear despite occasional flicking from the Matsubas, but gill movements, behaviour and appetites were normal, so we were given the go-ahead to add new fish. Naturally, our plan to add just one or two babies went out the window, and on 23rd August we came home with SIX new koi. Three Sansai (Yamamatsu Gin Rin Showa and Wagoi Sanke, and Miyatora Gin Rin Shiro Utsuri) and three Tosai (Miyatora Soragoi, and two Koda Ochiba Ė one Gin Rin and one Wagoi as I couldnít choose between them!). As these had been expertly quarantined by JKI they were added to the pond after acclimatisation and immediately our little Showa sprang to life - proof fish need friends!

    Sadly within 7 days the Matsubas were flashing more. At this time KH was low (4) so I added Envii Pond Equaliser in case pH fluctuations were causing the flashing as my pH would vary from 7.5 to 8 throughout the day and Iíd read that a 0.5 change could cause stress. This actually made my KH go down to 3 so I did a 20% water change which brought it back up to 4 (GH 9). All seemed OK and I was told periodic flashing could be just learned behaviour after flukes, though enthusiasm for food was low too. Then on the 14th Sep my Wagoi Ochiba developed pop eye and dropsy Ė literally overnight. He was isolated and I attempted to save him with heated water, salt and NT Labs Bacterad but he died within two days. I took the opportunity to scrape him on the 16th and found two live skin flukes, as I had on my Gin Mat when I scraped her again on the 14th. JKI advised to Fluke Solve again, but this time the UV was off and the Drum removed from the Nexus and cleaned with hydrochloric acid. On the 18th Sep I added 50g Fluke Solve but all fish started spitting food and the original 4 still flashing. 3 days later Soragoi showed start of pop eye so JKI advised to salt pond to 0.9% for 3 weeks max after a 20% water change, so I raised the salinity to 0.89% over 6 days with the Draco back in.

    During two weeks in high salt, flashing worsened, fish were jumping and gulping air, twitching dorsal and pectoral fins. On the 4th and 5th Oct I scraped 6 fish (3 under sedation for safety). My findings were a few dead Gyrodactylus and other unidentified parasites that my microscope could not focus on properly (I have a faulty x40 optic). JKI advised from these vids that I now had costia and felt I should remove all fish from pond (I have a 2,300L Intex), sterilise pond for 24 hours, drain and power wash all walls, pipework etc, refill and run for 24 hours, drain and refill then return fish and treat with PP. However this would take over a week which was a problem because 1) hubby was at work and Iím not able to do this on my own 2) I donít have a filter I could use with the Intex 3) if I had costia I was worried it was taking its toll given escalating symptoms and time was of the essence. We therefore decided to repeat the 2 day PP regime which would work well with the salt, which I did on Wed and Thu. This went OK but two issues i) Yamabuki jumped out onto granite patio despite pond being fully netted. Got him back in within moments but heís taken a battering ii) Shiro hanging at surface on day two, not gulping but not happy, so I neutralised with 280ml of 6% H202 after 7 hours. Iíve added 500ml of Pure+ on Friday and params today (NT Labs kit) are: pH 8, GH 12, KH 6, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 0.1.

    I'm so worried that we are not out of the woods yet with winter fast approaching. Iím still unsure how it all started, and how could Costia appear after two weeks of 0.89% salt - unless it came in via the water change?! Fiona MacD and Simon at JKI have been immensely helpful and I'm so grateful for their support. However Fiona can of course only advise on her product (Fluke Solve) and Simon at JKI is on hols (how dare he!), hence Iím finally getting up the courage to post rather than lurk! So, here are my Qs:

    1) I need to sterilise my equipment to stop any spread of parasites. How do I do that? Does Virkon kill parasites or just bacteria, fungus and viruses? If not, what do I use? So far, Iíve resorted to pouring boiling water over my panning net and bowl.

    2) I've read that costia cannot live without a host and will die within a couple of hours. But that's contradicted by reports that it can form into cysts that even when dried out can spring back to life on contact with water. What is the truth about costia and how does one truly eradicate it from equipment to prevent re-infection?

    3) My fish are looking happier after the PP, shoaling and eating a little, but still not quite right. Iíve seen the odd flash here and there but witnessed my Sanke scraping her cheeks like mad on the window edge yesterday evening. I scraped her twice today but because I canít focus closely enough, Iím unable to make out what I think are moving parasites within the river (new scope ordered and arriving Thursday). Could get very little mucus off her so scrapes may not have been good. Iíve uploaded two vids and would be very grateful if anyone can offer any insight. Do I still have parasites despite all these treatments, and if so any idea what: Scrape - 20.10.19

    4) Yamabuki has some damage to his sides, tail, head and gill, but nothing looks too angry or infected, and has improved since the day before. Given I still have 0.44% salt in water and bacterial load should be low after PP, should I sedate him and treat topically or watch in the hope heíll heal naturally? Donít want to stress him with sedation if not necessary, and some of the damage on the head is very near his right eye, but equally don't want bacteria getting a hold. Pics & Vid here.

    5) Has anyone experienced an outbreak of Costia following a mains water change? If so, is there any way to protect against this in the future?

    6) I use dechlorinator for my water changes (currently Kusuri). How long does Sodium Thiosulphate stay active in water and what can it interact with, treatment wise? How long should one leave between adding this and adding any treatment.

    Any answers very gratefully received


    11,500L Raised Pond, BD, Draco, Nexus 220, 55W UVC, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Thrichodina, Skin Flukes and now Costia. Help please!

    Here is a chart I use for treatments
    Last edited by freddyboy; 21-10-2019 at 08:58 AM.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    I use that chart above for my own treating of koi. I would use FM&G first. I have used eradic before and I find its weaker then FMG. I used the FMG mix for my white spot this year. I got that after a case of flukes.
    fishes immune system was down after treating for flukes. in your case flukes would be the last thing I would treat for. as costia and trichodina is more likely to kill your fish. deal with the flukes lastly.
    when I had the flukes I dosed with CT first. to get the mucus off the fish. some advise against this. but that's what I did. then did a 20% water change. Using ST. left it for 24 hours then did the fluke treatment. following instructions on the bottle. I used fluke M. but now tempretures are dropping I would use fluke P.

    costia and trichodina FMG is the No1 choice for costia and 2nd for trichodina. But if your lucky. it could also kill the trichodina hope this helps
    I would email paula Reynolds or phone her first. tell her you have salted the pond as well. as some treatments don t work with salt. on the salt side I would have advised on salt dip not treating the full pond with salt. http://www.lincsfishhealth.co.uk/ that's who I tell people to get in touch with for treating koi
    for that reason. But everyone is different. that's just my opinion.
    good luck with the fish treating. you and your fish have been in the wars
    fred
    Last edited by freddyboy; 21-10-2019 at 10:09 AM.

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  6. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    A soak in 20ppm of pp for cleaning nets and bits.

    Did you say if your pond is heated?

    If it's not then with the falling temperatures and the salt level in the pond, you are limited.

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  8. #5
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Koiz's Avatar
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    Thanks freddyboy and Simon Fish. I did post a reply 24 hours ago but it's still not showing, so I'm trying again! Fingers crossed this time it works....
    11,500L Raised Pond, BD, Draco, Nexus 220, 55W UVC, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  10. #6
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Koiz's Avatar
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    OK, great - my posts seem to be working again (just hope the lost post doesn't suddenly appear now as it'll confuse matters!)... so in reply to your advice:

    I dropped an email to Paula Reynolds and she phoned me almost immediately. What a lovely lady and so interesting, could have chatted to her for hours. Anyway, her advice was to leave things be until my new scope arrives Thursday and then see where I am after some more scrapes. Fiona has already confirmed that my flukes are Gyrodactylus Sprostonae and Paula advised that these are particularly resistant and problematic to clear, but Fiona is the Fluke expert so I need to follow her advice.

    All my scrape pics and videos are linked to the blue text in my first post if anyone wants to take a look at my flukes. Some of the captures of Flukes and Trichodina (oh yes, and sorry about the spelling mistake in the title of my topic but I can’t seem to edit it!) are pretty good – but they were with my first microscope which also became defective. I’ve now spent a bit more money on a better quality scope as I’ve been through 3 so far since July. On some of the videos you can actually see a baby Fluke inside the parent, and there is one of a Trichodina dying and emptying it's contents. Fascinating. I'm a bit addicted to this microscoping lark now! Anyway, back to your advice...

    Thanks for the PP 20ppm sterilisation protocol. How long do you usually leave your stuff in this to ensure a thorough clean?

    I don't have a heated pond which is one of the reasons I went with the PP and not FMG. Pond temp during day is currently around 11.5 but drops below 10 at night. I do have 35mm polycarb that'll be going on soon, but as temps are not that low yet, I was hoping to get the treatments finished first - eternal optimism!

    I wanted to use a treatment that worked with the salt I already had in the pond as Fiona wants me to repeat the Fluke Solve with Salt, so I didn’t want to do huge water changes to get the salt out for FMG, when I was only going to put it back again. There are a lot of articles on the success of PP for all protozoans so I had hoped this would take care of anything of that ilk. Certainly my Koi looked happier as they are hand feeding again and spending a lot more time swimming and shoaling, but I can see that something is still irritating them from the mid water flicking, twitching fins and occasional flash still. Just hope it's only the Flukes. Luckily my Yamabuki seems to be healing without my intervention, so I'm hoping he'll continue. The salt will no doubt be helping that, and Paula advised that salt at 0.44% (as mine currently is) is OK for a couple months.

    Leaving ST for 24 hours before applying treatment: is that the standard recommended time for all treatments and does this mean that ST becomes inactive after that time and leaves no build up in the water? Just curious because I'd read that Supaverm, for example, shouldn't be used in water that's had ST in it, but didn't explain why or if it's OK after a period of time. Not that I'm saying I'll be using Supaverm, just using that as an example that made me wonder in what way ST interacts with other chemicals.
    11,500L Raised Pond, BD, Draco, Nexus 220, 55W UVC, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    OK, great - my posts seem to be working again (just hope the lost post doesn't suddenly appear now as it'll confuse matters!)... so in reply to your advice:

    I dropped an email to Paula Reynolds and she phoned me almost immediately. What a lovely lady and so interesting, could have chatted to her for hours. Anyway, her advice was to leave things be until my new scope arrives Thursday and then see where I am after some more scrapes. Fiona has already confirmed that my flukes are Gyrodactylus Sprostonae and Paula advised that these are particularly resistant and problematic to clear, but Fiona is the Fluke expert so I need to follow her advice.

    All my scrape pics and videos are linked to the blue text in my first post if anyone wants to take a look at my flukes. Some of the captures of Flukes and Trichodina (oh yes, and sorry about the spelling mistake in the title of my topic but I can’t seem to edit it!) are pretty good – but they were with my first microscope which also became defective. I’ve now spent a bit more money on a better quality scope as I’ve been through 3 so far since July. On some of the videos you can actually see a baby Fluke inside the parent, and there is one of a Trichodina dying and emptying it's contents. Fascinating. I'm a bit addicted to this microscoping lark now! Anyway, back to your advice...

    Thanks for the PP 20ppm sterilisation protocol. How long do you usually leave your stuff in this to ensure a thorough clean?

    I don't have a heated pond which is one of the reasons I went with the PP and not FMG. Pond temp during day is currently around 11.5 but drops below 10 at night. I do have 35mm polycarb that'll be going on soon, but as temps are not that low yet, I was hoping to get the treatments finished first - eternal optimism!

    I wanted to use a treatment that worked with the salt I already had in the pond as Fiona wants me to repeat the Fluke Solve with Salt, so I didn’t want to do huge water changes to get the salt out for FMG, when I was only going to put it back again. There are a lot of articles on the success of PP for all protozoans so I had hoped this would take care of anything of that ilk. Certainly my Koi looked happier as they are hand feeding again and spending a lot more time swimming and shoaling, but I can see that something is still irritating them from the mid water flicking, twitching fins and occasional flash still. Just hope it's only the Flukes. Luckily my Yamabuki seems to be healing without my intervention, so I'm hoping he'll continue. The salt will no doubt be helping that, and Paula advised that salt at 0.44% (as mine currently is) is OK for a couple months.

    Leaving ST for 24 hours before applying treatment: is that the standard recommended time for all treatments and does this mean that ST becomes inactive after that time and leaves no build up in the water? Just curious because I'd read that Supaverm, for example, shouldn't be used in water that's had ST in it, but didn't explain why or if it's OK after a period of time. Not that I'm saying I'll be using Supaverm, just using that as an example that made me wonder in what way ST interacts with other chemicals.
    im having similar issues as you , ive tried PP and FMG seem to work the best so far for me but I still have undiagnosed health issues with my koi ive used salt which does help reduce stress and flashing
    I haven't fount flukes under my microscope but from how my fish behave it surely must be skin flukes but I heard formalin is used prior before fluke M/S Which reduces the slime coating on the koi and make treatment more effective otherwise 2 treatments are needed . and if your temp is below 18c you need the liquid version .
    hope this helps

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  14. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    ST kills pp . If I use pp. That's how I get rid of it. By adding ST to make it brown.You would need a lot more pp in the pond to keep it pink. Twice the cost. I use ST for trickle in and out. So I have to buy double the amount for my pond to get it to stay pink.
    If I PP anything as in nets and k1. I leave it for 24 hours. To clean them. In the dip.
    Also fmg. I use the fmg mix. I find it easier
    To use.
    Fred



    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Koiz,

    Judging by your opening post you probably know more about this stuff than me!!

    The scrapes you have done are brilliant, I can never get scrapes that good!

    1) I need to sterilise my equipment to stop any spread of parasites. How do I do that? Does Virkon kill parasites or just bacteria, fungus and viruses? If not, what do I use? So far, I’ve resorted to pouring boiling water over my panning net and bowl.

    Answer: As Fred says.


    2) I've read that costia cannot live without a host and will die within a couple of hours. But that's contradicted by reports that it can form into cysts that even when dried out can spring back to life on contact with water. What is the truth about costia and how does one truly eradicate it from equipment to prevent re-infection?

    Answer: Most of us have read the same as you, including the contradictions you refer to. Not sure what the truth is but worst case scenario is to assume that the cysts can indeed spring back to life, again, refer to Fred's post about PPing equipment.


    3) My fish are looking happier after the PP, shoaling and eating a little, but still not quite right. I’ve seen the odd flash here and there but witnessed my Sanke scraping her cheeks like mad on the window edge yesterday evening. I scraped her twice today but because I can’t focus closely enough, I’m unable to make out what I think are moving parasites within the river (new scope ordered and arriving Thursday). Could get very little mucus off her so scrapes may not have been good. I’ve uploaded two vids and would be very grateful if anyone can offer any insight. Do I still have parasites despite all these treatments, and if so any idea what:
    Scrape - 20.10.19

    Answer: I didn't see anything that I could positively identify as a parasite on the videos accessible from that link. Obviously there's a moving river, but the things that appear to be jumping around I think are just cells, assuming you are at 400x or above. There was one thing that looked a bit like a white spot cell, but most likely it wasn't.

    4) Yamabuki has some damage to his sides, tail, head and gill, but nothing looks too angry or infected, and has improved since the day before. Given I still have 0.44% salt in water and bacterial load should be low after PP, should I sedate him and treat topically or watch in the hope he’ll heal naturally? Don’t want to stress him with sedation if not necessary, and some of the damage on the head is very near his right eye, but equally don't want bacteria getting a hold. Pics & Vid here.

    Answer: I think he'll heal naturally as long as you keep on top of water parameters. For example this injury from last year I left untreated and its almost fully healed now, it does take time:

    IMG_20181119_152140.jpg


    5) Has anyone experienced an outbreak of Costia following a mains water change? If so, is there any way to protect against this in the future?

    Answer: No. They say Costia is most likely present in small numbers in all ponds and the Koi immune systems keep it in check. A small change to the ecosystem or a water quality deficiency can see numbers multiply rapidly and kill fish very quickly. There is a member on here (Pip) who hadn't treated his pond in 10 years and suddenly out of the blue had a major Costia infestation and started losing fish in a matter of days.

    *See further info below.



    6) I use dechlorinator for my water changes (currently Kusuri). How long does Sodium Thiosulphate stay active in water and what can it interact with, treatment wise? How long should one leave between adding this and adding any treatment.

    Answer: Not sure of the answer, and it's one I'd also like to know, but as Fred says it does neutralize PP.


    I've seen Koi with questionable health and most likely covered in parasites at MA outlets before. This isn't to say that standards are the same at all of their outlets though. Being a Koi keeper as serious as you are I'd be inclined only to buy from proper Koi Dealers with quarantine facilities that include a heat ramping programme.

    I had a similar situation to you once. After 10 years of not adding new fish I went out and purchased 2 new ones directly from an importer. Long story short but all the fish in that tank died, except for the new ones I'd added. If your system has been closed to new additions for a number of years then the immune systems of your Koi have adapted to their existing environment which may include low level parasites that they can handle. Bringing in new fish can change the balance of the ecosystem and bring about sudden infestations of parasites or bacterial infections. The new Koi from MA did most likely carry something that impacted the immune systems of your existing Koi, but it can't be said with any certainty that those new Koi actually brought parasites with them to your pond.

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  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Hi Koiz,

    Judging by your opening post you probably know more about this stuff than me!!

    The scrapes you have done are brilliant, I can never get scrapes that good!

    1) I need to sterilise my equipment to stop any spread of parasites. How do I do that? Does Virkon kill parasites or just bacteria, fungus and viruses? If not, what do I use? So far, Iíve resorted to pouring boiling water over my panning net and bowl.

    Answer: As Fred says.


    2) I've read that costia cannot live without a host and will die within a couple of hours. But that's contradicted by reports that it can form into cysts that even when dried out can spring back to life on contact with water. What is the truth about costia and how does one truly eradicate it from equipment to prevent re-infection?

    Answer: Most of us have read the same as you, including the contradictions you refer to. Not sure what the truth is but worst case scenario is to assume that the cysts can indeed spring back to life, again, refer to Fred's post about PPing equipment.


    3) My fish are looking happier after the PP, shoaling and eating a little, but still not quite right. Iíve seen the odd flash here and there but witnessed my Sanke scraping her cheeks like mad on the window edge yesterday evening. I scraped her twice today but because I canít focus closely enough, Iím unable to make out what I think are moving parasites within the river (new scope ordered and arriving Thursday). Could get very little mucus off her so scrapes may not have been good. Iíve uploaded two vids and would be very grateful if anyone can offer any insight. Do I still have parasites despite all these treatments, and if so any idea what:
    Scrape - 20.10.19

    Answer: I didn't see anything that I could positively identify as a parasite on the videos accessible from that link. Obviously there's a moving river, but the things that appear to be jumping around I think are just cells, assuming you are at 400x or above. There was one thing that looked a bit like a white spot cell, but most likely it wasn't.

    4) Yamabuki has some damage to his sides, tail, head and gill, but nothing looks too angry or infected, and has improved since the day before. Given I still have 0.44% salt in water and bacterial load should be low after PP, should I sedate him and treat topically or watch in the hope heíll heal naturally? Donít want to stress him with sedation if not necessary, and some of the damage on the head is very near his right eye, but equally don't want bacteria getting a hold. Pics & Vid here.

    Answer: I think he'll heal naturally as long as you keep on top of water parameters. For example this injury from last year I left untreated and its almost fully healed now, it does take time:

    IMG_20181119_152140.jpg


    5) Has anyone experienced an outbreak of Costia following a mains water change? If so, is there any way to protect against this in the future?

    Answer: No. They say Costia is most likely present in small numbers in all ponds and the Koi immune systems keep it in check. A small change to the ecosystem or a water quality deficiency can see numbers multiply rapidly and kill fish very quickly. There is a member on here (Pip) who hadn't treated his pond in 10 years and suddenly out of the blue had a major Costia infestation and started losing fish in a matter of days.

    *See further info below.



    6) I use dechlorinator for my water changes (currently Kusuri). How long does Sodium Thiosulphate stay active in water and what can it interact with, treatment wise? How long should one leave between adding this and adding any treatment.

    Answer: Not sure of the answer, and it's one I'd also like to know, but as Fred says it does neutralize PP.


    I've seen Koi with questionable health and most likely covered in parasites at MA outlets before. This isn't to say that standards are the same at all of their outlets though. Being a Koi keeper as serious as you are I'd be inclined only to buy from proper Koi Dealers with quarantine facilities that include a heat ramping programme.

    I had a similar situation to you once. After 10 years of not adding new fish I went out and purchased 2 new ones directly from an importer. Long story short but all the fish in that tank died, except for the new ones I'd added. If your system has been closed to new additions for a number of years then the immune systems of your Koi have adapted to their existing environment which may include low level parasites that they can handle. Bringing in new fish can change the balance of the ecosystem and bring about sudden infestations of parasites or bacterial infections. The new Koi from MA did most likely carry something that impacted the immune systems of your existing Koi, but it can't be said with any certainty that those new Koi actually brought parasites with them to your pond.
    Now that's what I call answering some questions. Good on you mate

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  20. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    im having similar issues as you , ive tried PP and FMG seem to work the best so far for me but I still have undiagnosed health issues with my koi ive used salt which does help reduce stress and flashing
    I haven't fount flukes under my microscope but from how my fish behave it surely must be skin flukes but I heard formalin is used prior before fluke M/S Which reduces the slime coating on the koi and make treatment more effective otherwise 2 treatments are needed . and if your temp is below 18c you need the liquid version .
    hope this helps
    When I had a parasites problem this year.
    RS started a thread. About taking mucus of the fish.
    About chlormine T.
    That's what I used first. Then did a 30% water change. Then added fluke treatment. Killed them . Then retreat 7 days later.
    No more flukes.
    But then I got whitespot. I think the fish immune system was down after treatments. So then did the same again for whitespot. But this time I used fmg mix.
    Got rid of that. And I have not had a problem since. Touch wood. Apparently alot of the big retailer s do it with CT first
    According to The information on the RS thread.




    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I phoned both Gary Smith at Gatwick Koi and Andrew Richards at Koi & Water Gardens and asked what their treatment regime would be for flukes.

    Think I might have them the wrong way round on my spreadsheet so can't be sure which one said which, but the responses were:

    1 dose of PP at 1.5g per 220 gallons to remove slime coat, followed 24 hours later by a proprietary fluke treatment.

    The other said they wouldn't use PP as it was harsh and preferred Chloramine T at a dose of 10 grams per 1000 gallons re-dosed every day for 3 days to remove slime coat, followed on the 4th day with a proprietary fluke treatment. For this method and dosage the PH must be at least 7.5

    I used the CT method and it did knock back my filters a little but I got away with it. If your filters are immature the risk is knocking them back and then having to do water changes mid treatment which becomes a major headache measuring out dosages etc, and expensive if using Fluke Solve etc.


    Before using those methods I had already tried Fluke Solve and it didn't work. 2nd time round using the CT method I went with Colombo Lernex and it worked. Will never know for sure whether that was due to clearing the slime coats with CT first. The other bonus with the Lernex was that it killed all the mosquito larvae in the filters and I didn't get any more for over 6 Months which made for a nice bite free summer.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 28-10-2019 at 11:11 AM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=RS2OOO;311284]I phoned both Gary Smith at Gatwick Koi and Andrew Richards at Koi & Water Gardens and asked what their treatment regime would be for flukes.

    Think I might have them the wrong way round on my spreadsheet so can't be sure which one said which, but the responses were:

    1 dose of PP at 1.5g per 220 gallons to remove slime coat, followed 24 hours later by a proprietary fluke treatment.

    The other said they wouldn't use PP as it was harsh and preferred Chloramine T at a dose of 10 grams per 1000 gallons re-dosed every day for 3 days to remove slime coat, followed on the 4th day with a proprietary fluke treatment. For this method and dosage the PH must be at least 7.5

    I used the CT method and it did knock back my filters a little but I got away with it. If your filters are immature the risk is knocking them back and then having to do water changes mid treatment which becomes a major headache measuring out dosages etc, and expensive if using Fluke Solve etc.


    Before using those methods I had already tried Fluke Solve and it didn't work. 2nd time round using the CT method I went with Colombo Lernex and it worked. Will never know for sure whether that was due to clearing the slime coats with CT first. The other bonus with the Lernex was that it killed all the mosquito larvae in the filters and I didn't get any more for over 6 Months which made for a nice bite free summer.[/QUOTE
    ]nice one RS for the response and explanation. I actually went two days Chloromine T. and it worked for me. whether it will work on this new type of fluke we will have to wait and see,
    touch wood we never have that.

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    Junior Member Rank = Fry Koiz's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks so much for all this input, especially RS. Really appreciated.

    It seems that when it comes to dealing with Flukes things are not straight forward as first seems, especially if you have a resistant strain, and of course the only way you will know that (short of wasting a lot of money on treatments that don't work!), is a good quality scrape image / video sent to someone like Fiona and her colleagues. However, it does seem that removing the slime coat is a necessary step to ensuring the treatment is effective, and also – for anyone with a drum filter, making sure that it is by passed so it doesn’t remove the treatment before it’s had chance to work (a very costly mistake I have learned)! Certainly, wiping out skin flukes within 24 hours of treatment should not be relied upon and it could take up to two weeks (possible with salt at min 0.3%), as Fiona suggested, and that would mean no water changes to keep the dose correct.

    Paula mentioned Lernex as the next step if Flukesolve didn’t work, but last weekend, armed with my new microscope that goes up to x60 (so 1,200 when used with my x20 USB Camera), I did six scrapes on my three smallest fish, two of which had shown evidence of continuing to flash occasionally, and I found absolutely nothing. Diddly squat! Not so much as a suspicious twirly thing that I couldn’t identify! In fact, I was so worried that I couldn’t see anything I did a scrape from the side of the pond to check my scope was working correctly – and that blew my mind! If anyone is interested in the amazing things I saw and can waste 10 mins look here: 27.10.19 - Pond Side Scrapes. Be very interested if anyone can identify these organisms.

    So, like Markini – ‘undiagnosed health issues’! Without a doubt, the key is symbiosis - getting the balance between koi health, water and all other pond inhabitants (as in opportunistic parasites) just right so the koi come out on top. Wish it was as easy as it sounds! And as RS said, new fish can unbalance a previously healthy closed system even if quarantined, or a problem could just spontaneously break out without an identifiable source. It does make it very hard to know how to add new fish without your own quarantine set up at home – which I don’t have. Choosing good suppliers is key (and I won't risk MA again), but even then they can suffer the same issues even with heat ramping. It’s humans vs nature – and she’s had a lot more practice than we have!

    So what next for my pond? Well – there’s good and bad news. The good is that all my fish seem to have perked up a lot since the last PP. I’m not going to treat with anything else in the absence of proof. My filter bounced back well – all params good (though that could be due to the salt keeping Nitrites in check). I have now winterized my pond with 35mm polycarb and insulated the filter (my pipework is insulated all year). I’m not heated, but last year they all wanted to eat throughout the cold weather with this method so they were clearly quite happy. I’m planning to reduce the salt down (as it’s still at 0.44%) with frequent 20% changes and I’m going to add Aqua Source Vitalize as recommended by Simon at JKI. I’m just waiting for a few answers from Dean at Aqua Source about the best way to use Vitalize in my situation, and then I’m hoping to get it into the pond for the weekend, so I’ll keep you posted on how that goes.

    As for bad - my Yamabuki healed fine after jumping out the pond without my intervention (I think the salt helped), but on Tuesday morning I came out to find him with a truly horrific injury under his mouth which I will talk about in a new thread.
    11,500L Raised Pond, BD, Draco, Nexus 220, 55W UVC, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Either your microscope is a very good one or you're a natural at taking scrapes / setting up the slide. The videos are very clear.

    The common slug looking things I think are fly larvae of some sort.

    The thing on a stalk at the beginning of the first video is Opercularia which grow on pond surfaces and normally live in large colonies but sometimes get detached.

    Some of the stuff is algae related, not sure what is what but some algae has flagella and swims around, and some of the larger stuff are protozoa that feed on the algae.

    Not really sure what the tiny things that jump about at higher magnification but I always thought they were cells of some kind.

    The rest of the stuff, no idea, but I can tell you that I've done similar scrapes and found completely different things, including something that looked identical to a cockroach but at 400x magnification!

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