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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Exclamation Trichodina, Skin Flukes and now Costia. Help please!

    Hi Folks,

    First-time poster seeking advice!

    Background: In 2017 we refurbished our garden and turned our hole in the ground pond that had become a haven for unwanted fish, into an 11,500L above ground, fibre glassed pond. Having wanted a koi only pond for years, I found an idyllic forever home in a managed lake for all the Goldies and Orfe which left me with 4 Koi (68cm Gin Matsuba, 58cm Purachina, 50cm Yamabuki and 48cm Doitsu Kin Matsuba) all with dubious heritage from Garden Centres. In June, hubby bought me two tosai (Showa and Hariwake Matsuba) from Maidenhead Aquatics (MA). We were assured that these were 1) Japanese Koi imported via Ornafish 2) fully quarantined and treated for parasites and worms. However, I decided to ‘quarantine’ them in a 60L Aquarium I’d never used, with daily water changes and having seen no signs of anything untoward, they went into the pond after two weeks. All looked fine and we went away for 4 days only to come back to my original koi laying clamped finned on the bottom. Water params were fine but I did a 20% water change and next day added 380g AquaSource Resolve to knock back early blanket weed growth.

    The following day, the big Koi started to flash so did another 20% water change (nitrates 30, but were high in source water), and got my pond builder to do a scrape which turned up one dead Fluke (Gin Mat) and one live Trichodina (Kin Mat). This was treated with NT Labs Eradick for 5 days with UV off, during which time the baby Matsuba jumped into my gravity skimmer and, though rescued and swam off, died the following day. The skimmer is now netted! After Eradick I added 600ml of EA Pure Pond to Nexus.

    Couple of weeks later on 12th July, having purchased a microscope, I did my own scrape on my Gin Mat and found Trich and two Skin Flukes. I did another 20% water change with Chlor Go and added 46g Fluke Solve the next day. After 2 days Koi were still flashing so I took advice from the very helpful Fiona MacDonald who explained my Draco Drum had likely removed the treatment so it hadn’t worked. Further advice from my local Koi Importer, JKI, that UV is best turned off for all treatments. I was advised to treat with Potassium Permanganate at 2ppm (23g) for 2 successive days with UV off which we did 3 days after the first failed Fluke Solve. This was left to neutralise (no H202 used).

    The UV went back on 9 days later, but Koi started flashing again so on 1st Aug, 14 days after end of PP and 18 days after first Fluke Solve, the remaining Solve was added - 52g into Pond (circulated via water blade) and 2g into Nexus (with bottom drain off). This was left like this for 12 hours before the filter was put back on. All seemed to pick up, but baby Showa was extremely withdrawn, hanging head down in a corner. He was so small (only 15cm) compared to the other Koi and I think he was feeling lonely after his buddy had died. Water params were still fine (I even tested Copper, Iron and O2 as I’d purchased the JBL TestLab), so JKI did more scrapes which were all clear despite occasional flicking from the Matsubas, but gill movements, behaviour and appetites were normal, so we were given the go-ahead to add new fish. Naturally, our plan to add just one or two babies went out the window, and on 23rd August we came home with SIX new koi. Three Sansai (Yamamatsu Gin Rin Showa and Wagoi Sanke, and Miyatora Gin Rin Shiro Utsuri) and three Tosai (Miyatora Soragoi, and two Koda Ochiba – one Gin Rin and one Wagoi as I couldn’t choose between them!). As these had been expertly quarantined by JKI they were added to the pond after acclimatisation and immediately our little Showa sprang to life - proof fish need friends!

    Sadly within 7 days the Matsubas were flashing more. At this time KH was low (4) so I added Envii Pond Equaliser in case pH fluctuations were causing the flashing as my pH would vary from 7.5 to 8 throughout the day and I’d read that a 0.5 change could cause stress. This actually made my KH go down to 3 so I did a 20% water change which brought it back up to 4 (GH 9). All seemed OK and I was told periodic flashing could be just learned behaviour after flukes, though enthusiasm for food was low too. Then on the 14th Sep my Wagoi Ochiba developed pop eye and dropsy – literally overnight. He was isolated and I attempted to save him with heated water, salt and NT Labs Bacterad but he died within two days. I took the opportunity to scrape him on the 16th and found two live skin flukes, as I had on my Gin Mat when I scraped her again on the 14th. JKI advised to Fluke Solve again, but this time the UV was off and the Drum removed from the Nexus and cleaned with hydrochloric acid. On the 18th Sep I added 50g Fluke Solve but all fish started spitting food and the original 4 still flashing. 3 days later Soragoi showed start of pop eye so JKI advised to salt pond to 0.9% for 3 weeks max after a 20% water change, so I raised the salinity to 0.89% over 6 days with the Draco back in.

    During two weeks in high salt, flashing worsened, fish were jumping and gulping air, twitching dorsal and pectoral fins. On the 4th and 5th Oct I scraped 6 fish (3 under sedation for safety). My findings were a few dead Gyrodactylus and other unidentified parasites that my microscope could not focus on properly (I have a faulty x40 optic). JKI advised from these vids that I now had costia and felt I should remove all fish from pond (I have a 2,300L Intex), sterilise pond for 24 hours, drain and power wash all walls, pipework etc, refill and run for 24 hours, drain and refill then return fish and treat with PP. However this would take over a week which was a problem because 1) hubby was at work and I’m not able to do this on my own 2) I don’t have a filter I could use with the Intex 3) if I had costia I was worried it was taking its toll given escalating symptoms and time was of the essence. We therefore decided to repeat the 2 day PP regime which would work well with the salt, which I did on Wed and Thu. This went OK but two issues i) Yamabuki jumped out onto granite patio despite pond being fully netted. Got him back in within moments but he’s taken a battering ii) Shiro hanging at surface on day two, not gulping but not happy, so I neutralised with 280ml of 6% H202 after 7 hours. I’ve added 500ml of Pure+ on Friday and params today (NT Labs kit) are: pH 8, GH 12, KH 6, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 0.1.

    I'm so worried that we are not out of the woods yet with winter fast approaching. I’m still unsure how it all started, and how could Costia appear after two weeks of 0.89% salt - unless it came in via the water change?! Fiona MacD and Simon at JKI have been immensely helpful and I'm so grateful for their support. However Fiona can of course only advise on her product (Fluke Solve) and Simon at JKI is on hols (how dare he!), hence I’m finally getting up the courage to post rather than lurk! So, here are my Qs:

    1) I need to sterilise my equipment to stop any spread of parasites. How do I do that? Does Virkon kill parasites or just bacteria, fungus and viruses? If not, what do I use? So far, I’ve resorted to pouring boiling water over my panning net and bowl.

    2) I've read that costia cannot live without a host and will die within a couple of hours. But that's contradicted by reports that it can form into cysts that even when dried out can spring back to life on contact with water. What is the truth about costia and how does one truly eradicate it from equipment to prevent re-infection?

    3) My fish are looking happier after the PP, shoaling and eating a little, but still not quite right. I’ve seen the odd flash here and there but witnessed my Sanke scraping her cheeks like mad on the window edge yesterday evening. I scraped her twice today but because I can’t focus closely enough, I’m unable to make out what I think are moving parasites within the river (new scope ordered and arriving Thursday). Could get very little mucus off her so scrapes may not have been good. I’ve uploaded two vids and would be very grateful if anyone can offer any insight. Do I still have parasites despite all these treatments, and if so any idea what: Scrape - 20.10.19

    4) Yamabuki has some damage to his sides, tail, head and gill, but nothing looks too angry or infected, and has improved since the day before. Given I still have 0.44% salt in water and bacterial load should be low after PP, should I sedate him and treat topically or watch in the hope he’ll heal naturally? Don’t want to stress him with sedation if not necessary, and some of the damage on the head is very near his right eye, but equally don't want bacteria getting a hold. Pics & Vid here.

    5) Has anyone experienced an outbreak of Costia following a mains water change? If so, is there any way to protect against this in the future?

    6) I use dechlorinator for my water changes (currently Kusuri). How long does Sodium Thiosulphate stay active in water and what can it interact with, treatment wise? How long should one leave between adding this and adding any treatment.

    Any answers very gratefully received


    Last edited by Koiz; 05-10-2020 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Corrected Spelling Mistake in Title
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Thrichodina, Skin Flukes and now Costia. Help please!

    Here is a chart I use for treatments
    Last edited by freddyboy; 21-10-2019 at 08:58 AM.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    I use that chart above for my own treating of koi. I would use FM&G first. I have used eradic before and I find its weaker then FMG. I used the FMG mix for my white spot this year. I got that after a case of flukes.
    fishes immune system was down after treating for flukes. in your case flukes would be the last thing I would treat for. as costia and trichodina is more likely to kill your fish. deal with the flukes lastly.
    when I had the flukes I dosed with CT first. to get the mucus off the fish. some advise against this. but that's what I did. then did a 20% water change. Using ST. left it for 24 hours then did the fluke treatment. following instructions on the bottle. I used fluke M. but now tempretures are dropping I would use fluke P.

    costia and trichodina FMG is the No1 choice for costia and 2nd for trichodina. But if your lucky. it could also kill the trichodina hope this helps
    I would email paula Reynolds or phone her first. tell her you have salted the pond as well. as some treatments don t work with salt. on the salt side I would have advised on salt dip not treating the full pond with salt. http://www.lincsfishhealth.co.uk/ that's who I tell people to get in touch with for treating koi
    for that reason. But everyone is different. that's just my opinion.
    good luck with the fish treating. you and your fish have been in the wars
    fred
    Last edited by freddyboy; 21-10-2019 at 10:09 AM.

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  6. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    A soak in 20ppm of pp for cleaning nets and bits.

    Did you say if your pond is heated?

    If it's not then with the falling temperatures and the salt level in the pond, you are limited.

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  8. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Thanks freddyboy and Simon Fish. I did post a reply 24 hours ago but it's still not showing, so I'm trying again! Fingers crossed this time it works....
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    OK, great - my posts seem to be working again (just hope the lost post doesn't suddenly appear now as it'll confuse matters!)... so in reply to your advice:

    I dropped an email to Paula Reynolds and she phoned me almost immediately. What a lovely lady and so interesting, could have chatted to her for hours. Anyway, her advice was to leave things be until my new scope arrives Thursday and then see where I am after some more scrapes. Fiona has already confirmed that my flukes are Gyrodactylus Sprostonae and Paula advised that these are particularly resistant and problematic to clear, but Fiona is the Fluke expert so I need to follow her advice.

    All my scrape pics and videos are linked to the blue text in my first post if anyone wants to take a look at my flukes. Some of the captures of Flukes and Trichodina (oh yes, and sorry about the spelling mistake in the title of my topic but I can’t seem to edit it!) are pretty good – but they were with my first microscope which also became defective. I’ve now spent a bit more money on a better quality scope as I’ve been through 3 so far since July. On some of the videos you can actually see a baby Fluke inside the parent, and there is one of a Trichodina dying and emptying it's contents. Fascinating. I'm a bit addicted to this microscoping lark now! Anyway, back to your advice...

    Thanks for the PP 20ppm sterilisation protocol. How long do you usually leave your stuff in this to ensure a thorough clean?

    I don't have a heated pond which is one of the reasons I went with the PP and not FMG. Pond temp during day is currently around 11.5 but drops below 10 at night. I do have 35mm polycarb that'll be going on soon, but as temps are not that low yet, I was hoping to get the treatments finished first - eternal optimism!

    I wanted to use a treatment that worked with the salt I already had in the pond as Fiona wants me to repeat the Fluke Solve with Salt, so I didn’t want to do huge water changes to get the salt out for FMG, when I was only going to put it back again. There are a lot of articles on the success of PP for all protozoans so I had hoped this would take care of anything of that ilk. Certainly my Koi looked happier as they are hand feeding again and spending a lot more time swimming and shoaling, but I can see that something is still irritating them from the mid water flicking, twitching fins and occasional flash still. Just hope it's only the Flukes. Luckily my Yamabuki seems to be healing without my intervention, so I'm hoping he'll continue. The salt will no doubt be helping that, and Paula advised that salt at 0.44% (as mine currently is) is OK for a couple months.

    Leaving ST for 24 hours before applying treatment: is that the standard recommended time for all treatments and does this mean that ST becomes inactive after that time and leaves no build up in the water? Just curious because I'd read that Supaverm, for example, shouldn't be used in water that's had ST in it, but didn't explain why or if it's OK after a period of time. Not that I'm saying I'll be using Supaverm, just using that as an example that made me wonder in what way ST interacts with other chemicals.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    OK, great - my posts seem to be working again (just hope the lost post doesn't suddenly appear now as it'll confuse matters!)... so in reply to your advice:

    I dropped an email to Paula Reynolds and she phoned me almost immediately. What a lovely lady and so interesting, could have chatted to her for hours. Anyway, her advice was to leave things be until my new scope arrives Thursday and then see where I am after some more scrapes. Fiona has already confirmed that my flukes are Gyrodactylus Sprostonae and Paula advised that these are particularly resistant and problematic to clear, but Fiona is the Fluke expert so I need to follow her advice.

    All my scrape pics and videos are linked to the blue text in my first post if anyone wants to take a look at my flukes. Some of the captures of Flukes and Trichodina (oh yes, and sorry about the spelling mistake in the title of my topic but I can’t seem to edit it!) are pretty good – but they were with my first microscope which also became defective. I’ve now spent a bit more money on a better quality scope as I’ve been through 3 so far since July. On some of the videos you can actually see a baby Fluke inside the parent, and there is one of a Trichodina dying and emptying it's contents. Fascinating. I'm a bit addicted to this microscoping lark now! Anyway, back to your advice...

    Thanks for the PP 20ppm sterilisation protocol. How long do you usually leave your stuff in this to ensure a thorough clean?

    I don't have a heated pond which is one of the reasons I went with the PP and not FMG. Pond temp during day is currently around 11.5 but drops below 10 at night. I do have 35mm polycarb that'll be going on soon, but as temps are not that low yet, I was hoping to get the treatments finished first - eternal optimism!

    I wanted to use a treatment that worked with the salt I already had in the pond as Fiona wants me to repeat the Fluke Solve with Salt, so I didn’t want to do huge water changes to get the salt out for FMG, when I was only going to put it back again. There are a lot of articles on the success of PP for all protozoans so I had hoped this would take care of anything of that ilk. Certainly my Koi looked happier as they are hand feeding again and spending a lot more time swimming and shoaling, but I can see that something is still irritating them from the mid water flicking, twitching fins and occasional flash still. Just hope it's only the Flukes. Luckily my Yamabuki seems to be healing without my intervention, so I'm hoping he'll continue. The salt will no doubt be helping that, and Paula advised that salt at 0.44% (as mine currently is) is OK for a couple months.

    Leaving ST for 24 hours before applying treatment: is that the standard recommended time for all treatments and does this mean that ST becomes inactive after that time and leaves no build up in the water? Just curious because I'd read that Supaverm, for example, shouldn't be used in water that's had ST in it, but didn't explain why or if it's OK after a period of time. Not that I'm saying I'll be using Supaverm, just using that as an example that made me wonder in what way ST interacts with other chemicals.
    im having similar issues as you , ive tried PP and FMG seem to work the best so far for me but I still have undiagnosed health issues with my koi ive used salt which does help reduce stress and flashing
    I haven't fount flukes under my microscope but from how my fish behave it surely must be skin flukes but I heard formalin is used prior before fluke M/S Which reduces the slime coating on the koi and make treatment more effective otherwise 2 treatments are needed . and if your temp is below 18c you need the liquid version .
    hope this helps

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  14. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    ST kills pp . If I use pp. That's how I get rid of it. By adding ST to make it brown.You would need a lot more pp in the pond to keep it pink. Twice the cost. I use ST for trickle in and out. So I have to buy double the amount for my pond to get it to stay pink.
    If I PP anything as in nets and k1. I leave it for 24 hours. To clean them. In the dip.
    Also fmg. I use the fmg mix. I find it easier
    To use.
    Fred



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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Koiz,

    Judging by your opening post you probably know more about this stuff than me!!

    The scrapes you have done are brilliant, I can never get scrapes that good!

    1) I need to sterilise my equipment to stop any spread of parasites. How do I do that? Does Virkon kill parasites or just bacteria, fungus and viruses? If not, what do I use? So far, I’ve resorted to pouring boiling water over my panning net and bowl.

    Answer: As Fred says.


    2) I've read that costia cannot live without a host and will die within a couple of hours. But that's contradicted by reports that it can form into cysts that even when dried out can spring back to life on contact with water. What is the truth about costia and how does one truly eradicate it from equipment to prevent re-infection?

    Answer: Most of us have read the same as you, including the contradictions you refer to. Not sure what the truth is but worst case scenario is to assume that the cysts can indeed spring back to life, again, refer to Fred's post about PPing equipment.


    3) My fish are looking happier after the PP, shoaling and eating a little, but still not quite right. I’ve seen the odd flash here and there but witnessed my Sanke scraping her cheeks like mad on the window edge yesterday evening. I scraped her twice today but because I can’t focus closely enough, I’m unable to make out what I think are moving parasites within the river (new scope ordered and arriving Thursday). Could get very little mucus off her so scrapes may not have been good. I’ve uploaded two vids and would be very grateful if anyone can offer any insight. Do I still have parasites despite all these treatments, and if so any idea what:
    Scrape - 20.10.19

    Answer: I didn't see anything that I could positively identify as a parasite on the videos accessible from that link. Obviously there's a moving river, but the things that appear to be jumping around I think are just cells, assuming you are at 400x or above. There was one thing that looked a bit like a white spot cell, but most likely it wasn't.

    4) Yamabuki has some damage to his sides, tail, head and gill, but nothing looks too angry or infected, and has improved since the day before. Given I still have 0.44% salt in water and bacterial load should be low after PP, should I sedate him and treat topically or watch in the hope he’ll heal naturally? Don’t want to stress him with sedation if not necessary, and some of the damage on the head is very near his right eye, but equally don't want bacteria getting a hold. Pics & Vid here.

    Answer: I think he'll heal naturally as long as you keep on top of water parameters. For example this injury from last year I left untreated and its almost fully healed now, it does take time:

    IMG_20181119_152140.jpg


    5) Has anyone experienced an outbreak of Costia following a mains water change? If so, is there any way to protect against this in the future?

    Answer: No. They say Costia is most likely present in small numbers in all ponds and the Koi immune systems keep it in check. A small change to the ecosystem or a water quality deficiency can see numbers multiply rapidly and kill fish very quickly. There is a member on here (Pip) who hadn't treated his pond in 10 years and suddenly out of the blue had a major Costia infestation and started losing fish in a matter of days.

    *See further info below.



    6) I use dechlorinator for my water changes (currently Kusuri). How long does Sodium Thiosulphate stay active in water and what can it interact with, treatment wise? How long should one leave between adding this and adding any treatment.

    Answer: Not sure of the answer, and it's one I'd also like to know, but as Fred says it does neutralize PP.


    I've seen Koi with questionable health and most likely covered in parasites at MA outlets before. This isn't to say that standards are the same at all of their outlets though. Being a Koi keeper as serious as you are I'd be inclined only to buy from proper Koi Dealers with quarantine facilities that include a heat ramping programme.

    I had a similar situation to you once. After 10 years of not adding new fish I went out and purchased 2 new ones directly from an importer. Long story short but all the fish in that tank died, except for the new ones I'd added. If your system has been closed to new additions for a number of years then the immune systems of your Koi have adapted to their existing environment which may include low level parasites that they can handle. Bringing in new fish can change the balance of the ecosystem and bring about sudden infestations of parasites or bacterial infections. The new Koi from MA did most likely carry something that impacted the immune systems of your existing Koi, but it can't be said with any certainty that those new Koi actually brought parasites with them to your pond.

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  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Hi Koiz,

    Judging by your opening post you probably know more about this stuff than me!!

    The scrapes you have done are brilliant, I can never get scrapes that good!

    1) I need to sterilise my equipment to stop any spread of parasites. How do I do that? Does Virkon kill parasites or just bacteria, fungus and viruses? If not, what do I use? So far, I’ve resorted to pouring boiling water over my panning net and bowl.

    Answer: As Fred says.


    2) I've read that costia cannot live without a host and will die within a couple of hours. But that's contradicted by reports that it can form into cysts that even when dried out can spring back to life on contact with water. What is the truth about costia and how does one truly eradicate it from equipment to prevent re-infection?

    Answer: Most of us have read the same as you, including the contradictions you refer to. Not sure what the truth is but worst case scenario is to assume that the cysts can indeed spring back to life, again, refer to Fred's post about PPing equipment.


    3) My fish are looking happier after the PP, shoaling and eating a little, but still not quite right. I’ve seen the odd flash here and there but witnessed my Sanke scraping her cheeks like mad on the window edge yesterday evening. I scraped her twice today but because I can’t focus closely enough, I’m unable to make out what I think are moving parasites within the river (new scope ordered and arriving Thursday). Could get very little mucus off her so scrapes may not have been good. I’ve uploaded two vids and would be very grateful if anyone can offer any insight. Do I still have parasites despite all these treatments, and if so any idea what:
    Scrape - 20.10.19

    Answer: I didn't see anything that I could positively identify as a parasite on the videos accessible from that link. Obviously there's a moving river, but the things that appear to be jumping around I think are just cells, assuming you are at 400x or above. There was one thing that looked a bit like a white spot cell, but most likely it wasn't.

    4) Yamabuki has some damage to his sides, tail, head and gill, but nothing looks too angry or infected, and has improved since the day before. Given I still have 0.44% salt in water and bacterial load should be low after PP, should I sedate him and treat topically or watch in the hope he’ll heal naturally? Don’t want to stress him with sedation if not necessary, and some of the damage on the head is very near his right eye, but equally don't want bacteria getting a hold. Pics & Vid here.

    Answer: I think he'll heal naturally as long as you keep on top of water parameters. For example this injury from last year I left untreated and its almost fully healed now, it does take time:

    IMG_20181119_152140.jpg


    5) Has anyone experienced an outbreak of Costia following a mains water change? If so, is there any way to protect against this in the future?

    Answer: No. They say Costia is most likely present in small numbers in all ponds and the Koi immune systems keep it in check. A small change to the ecosystem or a water quality deficiency can see numbers multiply rapidly and kill fish very quickly. There is a member on here (Pip) who hadn't treated his pond in 10 years and suddenly out of the blue had a major Costia infestation and started losing fish in a matter of days.

    *See further info below.



    6) I use dechlorinator for my water changes (currently Kusuri). How long does Sodium Thiosulphate stay active in water and what can it interact with, treatment wise? How long should one leave between adding this and adding any treatment.

    Answer: Not sure of the answer, and it's one I'd also like to know, but as Fred says it does neutralize PP.


    I've seen Koi with questionable health and most likely covered in parasites at MA outlets before. This isn't to say that standards are the same at all of their outlets though. Being a Koi keeper as serious as you are I'd be inclined only to buy from proper Koi Dealers with quarantine facilities that include a heat ramping programme.

    I had a similar situation to you once. After 10 years of not adding new fish I went out and purchased 2 new ones directly from an importer. Long story short but all the fish in that tank died, except for the new ones I'd added. If your system has been closed to new additions for a number of years then the immune systems of your Koi have adapted to their existing environment which may include low level parasites that they can handle. Bringing in new fish can change the balance of the ecosystem and bring about sudden infestations of parasites or bacterial infections. The new Koi from MA did most likely carry something that impacted the immune systems of your existing Koi, but it can't be said with any certainty that those new Koi actually brought parasites with them to your pond.
    Now that's what I call answering some questions. Good on you mate

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  20. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    im having similar issues as you , ive tried PP and FMG seem to work the best so far for me but I still have undiagnosed health issues with my koi ive used salt which does help reduce stress and flashing
    I haven't fount flukes under my microscope but from how my fish behave it surely must be skin flukes but I heard formalin is used prior before fluke M/S Which reduces the slime coating on the koi and make treatment more effective otherwise 2 treatments are needed . and if your temp is below 18c you need the liquid version .
    hope this helps
    When I had a parasites problem this year.
    RS started a thread. About taking mucus of the fish.
    About chlormine T.
    That's what I used first. Then did a 30% water change. Then added fluke treatment. Killed them . Then retreat 7 days later.
    No more flukes.
    But then I got whitespot. I think the fish immune system was down after treatments. So then did the same again for whitespot. But this time I used fmg mix.
    Got rid of that. And I have not had a problem since. Touch wood. Apparently alot of the big retailer s do it with CT first
    According to The information on the RS thread.




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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I phoned both Gary Smith at Gatwick Koi and Andrew Richards at Koi & Water Gardens and asked what their treatment regime would be for flukes.

    Think I might have them the wrong way round on my spreadsheet so can't be sure which one said which, but the responses were:

    1 dose of PP at 1.5g per 220 gallons to remove slime coat, followed 24 hours later by a proprietary fluke treatment.

    The other said they wouldn't use PP as it was harsh and preferred Chloramine T at a dose of 10 grams per 1000 gallons re-dosed every day for 3 days to remove slime coat, followed on the 4th day with a proprietary fluke treatment. For this method and dosage the PH must be at least 7.5

    I used the CT method and it did knock back my filters a little but I got away with it. If your filters are immature the risk is knocking them back and then having to do water changes mid treatment which becomes a major headache measuring out dosages etc, and expensive if using Fluke Solve etc.


    Before using those methods I had already tried Fluke Solve and it didn't work. 2nd time round using the CT method I went with Colombo Lernex and it worked. Will never know for sure whether that was due to clearing the slime coats with CT first. The other bonus with the Lernex was that it killed all the mosquito larvae in the filters and I didn't get any more for over 6 Months which made for a nice bite free summer.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 28-10-2019 at 11:11 AM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=RS2OOO;311284]I phoned both Gary Smith at Gatwick Koi and Andrew Richards at Koi & Water Gardens and asked what their treatment regime would be for flukes.

    Think I might have them the wrong way round on my spreadsheet so can't be sure which one said which, but the responses were:

    1 dose of PP at 1.5g per 220 gallons to remove slime coat, followed 24 hours later by a proprietary fluke treatment.

    The other said they wouldn't use PP as it was harsh and preferred Chloramine T at a dose of 10 grams per 1000 gallons re-dosed every day for 3 days to remove slime coat, followed on the 4th day with a proprietary fluke treatment. For this method and dosage the PH must be at least 7.5

    I used the CT method and it did knock back my filters a little but I got away with it. If your filters are immature the risk is knocking them back and then having to do water changes mid treatment which becomes a major headache measuring out dosages etc, and expensive if using Fluke Solve etc.


    Before using those methods I had already tried Fluke Solve and it didn't work. 2nd time round using the CT method I went with Colombo Lernex and it worked. Will never know for sure whether that was due to clearing the slime coats with CT first. The other bonus with the Lernex was that it killed all the mosquito larvae in the filters and I didn't get any more for over 6 Months which made for a nice bite free summer.[/QUOTE
    ]nice one RS for the response and explanation. I actually went two days Chloromine T. and it worked for me. whether it will work on this new type of fluke we will have to wait and see,
    touch wood we never have that.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks so much for all this input, especially RS. Really appreciated.

    It seems that when it comes to dealing with Flukes things are not straight forward as first seems, especially if you have a resistant strain, and of course the only way you will know that (short of wasting a lot of money on treatments that don't work!), is a good quality scrape image / video sent to someone like Fiona and her colleagues. However, it does seem that removing the slime coat is a necessary step to ensuring the treatment is effective, and also – for anyone with a drum filter, making sure that it is by passed so it doesn’t remove the treatment before it’s had chance to work (a very costly mistake I have learned)! Certainly, wiping out skin flukes within 24 hours of treatment should not be relied upon and it could take up to two weeks (possible with salt at min 0.3%), as Fiona suggested, and that would mean no water changes to keep the dose correct.

    Paula mentioned Lernex as the next step if Flukesolve didn’t work, but last weekend, armed with my new microscope that goes up to x60 (so 1,200 when used with my x20 USB Camera), I did six scrapes on my three smallest fish, two of which had shown evidence of continuing to flash occasionally, and I found absolutely nothing. Diddly squat! Not so much as a suspicious twirly thing that I couldn’t identify! In fact, I was so worried that I couldn’t see anything I did a scrape from the side of the pond to check my scope was working correctly – and that blew my mind! If anyone is interested in the amazing things I saw and can waste 10 mins look here: 27.10.19 - Pond Side Scrapes. Be very interested if anyone can identify these organisms.

    So, like Markini – ‘undiagnosed health issues’! Without a doubt, the key is symbiosis - getting the balance between koi health, water and all other pond inhabitants (as in opportunistic parasites) just right so the koi come out on top. Wish it was as easy as it sounds! And as RS said, new fish can unbalance a previously healthy closed system even if quarantined, or a problem could just spontaneously break out without an identifiable source. It does make it very hard to know how to add new fish without your own quarantine set up at home – which I don’t have. Choosing good suppliers is key (and I won't risk MA again), but even then they can suffer the same issues even with heat ramping. It’s humans vs nature – and she’s had a lot more practice than we have!

    So what next for my pond? Well – there’s good and bad news. The good is that all my fish seem to have perked up a lot since the last PP. I’m not going to treat with anything else in the absence of proof. My filter bounced back well – all params good (though that could be due to the salt keeping Nitrites in check). I have now winterized my pond with 35mm polycarb and insulated the filter (my pipework is insulated all year). I’m not heated, but last year they all wanted to eat throughout the cold weather with this method so they were clearly quite happy. I’m planning to reduce the salt down (as it’s still at 0.44%) with frequent 20% changes and I’m going to add Aqua Source Vitalize as recommended by Simon at JKI. I’m just waiting for a few answers from Dean at Aqua Source about the best way to use Vitalize in my situation, and then I’m hoping to get it into the pond for the weekend, so I’ll keep you posted on how that goes.

    As for bad - my Yamabuki healed fine after jumping out the pond without my intervention (I think the salt helped), but on Tuesday morning I came out to find him with a truly horrific injury under his mouth which I will talk about in a new thread.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  28. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Either your microscope is a very good one or you're a natural at taking scrapes / setting up the slide. The videos are very clear.

    The common slug looking things I think are fly larvae of some sort.

    The thing on a stalk at the beginning of the first video is Opercularia which grow on pond surfaces and normally live in large colonies but sometimes get detached.

    Some of the stuff is algae related, not sure what is what but some algae has flagella and swims around, and some of the larger stuff are protozoa that feed on the algae.

    Not really sure what the tiny things that jump about at higher magnification but I always thought they were cells of some kind.

    The rest of the stuff, no idea, but I can tell you that I've done similar scrapes and found completely different things, including something that looked identical to a cockroach but at 400x magnification!

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Hi folks,

    I’m in need of more urgent help please. Following on from my problems last year, the fish came through winter fine but by March were starting to flash again. Scrapes showed the same skin flukes from last year – they had clearly never gone despite having treated 4 times with Flukesolve, and even with salt at 0.89%, I was not inclined to repeat this so after some helpful conversations with Kevin of Parkstone (who knows a thing or two about persistent flukes!), I decided to go the Lernex Pro route after a couple days of CT prep. I did two Lernex Pro treatments and this finally took care of the flukes.

    A few weeks later the fish started flashing again and scrapes showed Chilodonella and Costia. This was treated with FMG twice in 7 days which took care of the Chilodonella, but not the Costia. By now my baby Showa was very poorly so I isolated her in my 100L bowl as I was concerned that perhaps my pond volumes were not accurate and that was why the FMG had failed on the Costia. Whilst in 80L of water I tried further FMG using the products from Parkstone, and then tried Kockney Koi brand just to be sure it was not a chemical issue. Neither worked and the baby Showa declined more with sunken eyes and notched nose. In desperation I tried a salt dip which did perk her up but only for a short while, then Acriflavine & MG. Eventually I euthanized the poor thing as I couldn’t see her suffer any more. Post-mortem scrapes showed no decrease in costia whatsoever, even after being in AquaSed for 30 mins - useful to know if you are worried that sedating a koi to scrape for costia will result in a false negative

    By this time I had followed advice to remove my remaining 9 fish into an Intex pool to treat in a known volume of water and to bomb my pond with caustic soda and bleach. Unable to get hold of those chemicals in the lockdown, I resorted to using 20ppm PP for two days and threw in all my equipment too.

    Whilst in the Intex my koi have been treated with the Kockney Koi FMG - again with no success. I then resorted to 2ppm PP, 3 times. This seemed to help and I then gave my fish a breather in AquaSouce Vitalize and Enzyme for 10 days, during which my Shiro’s red streaked skin mostly resolved, though I still have some red streaked fins on my remaining Showa and the fins of my baby Ochiba are looked ragged on the edges, possibly from so many chemicals?

    Yesterday I scraped my Shiro again, only to find costia still, though in small numbers. I repeated the PP yesterday at a slightly higher doses of 4mg / 1,680L for 8 hours. I have just scraped again and the Costia is still there – in fact, I could see more on the scrape today than I did yesterday.

    To say I am at my wits end is an understatement. I can’t keep repeating PP when it is obviously not working as well as I thought it was. The PP I have used is from Proton Scientific and is supposedly 99% pure, but could this be the problem? I used it last year for Trich and it worked a treat. Should I try Kusuri PP? Should I try PP dips rather than whole pond treatments, but at what dose? Salt dip didn't work at all for the baby Showa, but perhaps she was just too riddled by these hideous little parasites.

    Many have talked about Alparex, but I’ve been warned that this can wipe out ponds of fish despite having good KH and GH, and my own experiment with the Acriflavine and MG on the baby Showa showed no signs of success, though it was not in it for many hours before I had to euthanise.

    This is the link to my folder of Scape Videos should anyone wish to take a look. There are some beautiful shots of the gill biopsies I did of my baby Showa - even in death that fish was very pretty. I have spoken with Paula Reynolds who confirmed it is definitely Costia on my scrapes but could not offer any further advice unless I took a fish to her.

    My koi are still in the Intex pool as I have now stripped out my whole filtration system, so my pond will not be usable again for at least two more weeks at the earliest. On the whole they are OK - the costia are not taking their toll on them like they did the baby Showa - yet. I don’t see them flashing, but then I’m not spending much time watching them as I’m dealing with sorting out the pond and sitting in Addenbrookes eye hospital for 5 hours at a time for my second PVD and suspected detached retina (hence my scrape vids are getting progressively worse as I'm struggling to see!). I am doing daily water changes so params are OK, and occasionally feeding to try to keep their immunity intact, but I do not have a proper quarantine facility and I am not in a position to set one up. After everything I have spent on this pond, hubs would threaten divorce if I mentioned that. I really need to get on top of this situation before I have to go in for another eye operation as that'll put me out of action for weeks.

    I have pasted below all the treatments I have done this year so far so you can see my doses per water volumes, temps etc, in case I have done something wrong and just can't see it for myself. It does not make for pleasant reading and I feel so sorry for my fish having been put through all this.

    I genuinely do not know what to do next and would be very grateful for advice or shared experience. Has anyone else encountered Costia that just will not die? I thought my prazi-resistant flukes were bad enough, but this is next level stuff and I’m now out of ideas.


    Pond Treatments To 17.05.20.jpg
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  31. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Costia information from the Fish Helpline

    Seems there's an Asian variant of Costia that's resistant.

    They say Costia is always present but when a fish is ill it's more susceptible. Given all the other issues I suspect that Costia is taking advantage. Also there's comments on that link that suspect that costa exist within the orafices. If that's the case then a lot of treatments would simply

    One option is to increase the water temperature using a heater. One YouTuber (Adam) has an inline heater that he has for this very reason. Inlines cost a lot per day (£10-30) for a period but considering the chemical treatments are also expensive for large volumes this is an option. The benefit of raising temps is that it treats the fish internally too. The bad point is that you need massive amounts of aeration as the dissolved O2 capacity of water drops as it heats up. So having a dissolved O2 meter is also a good idea for this route.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Costia information from the Fish Helpline

    Seems there's an Asian variant of Costia that's resistant.

    They say Costia is always present but when a fish is ill it's more susceptible. Given all the other issues I suspect that Costia is taking advantage. Also there's comments on that link that suspect that costa exist within the orafices. If that's the case then a lot of treatments would simply

    One option is to increase the water temperature using a heater. One YouTuber (Adam) has an inline heater that he has for this very reason. Inlines cost a lot per day (£10-30) for a period but considering the chemical treatments are also expensive for large volumes this is an option. The benefit of raising temps is that it treats the fish internally too. The bad point is that you need massive amounts of aeration as the dissolved O2 capacity of water drops as it heats up. So having a dissolved O2 meter is also a good idea for this route.
    Hi NickK, Thank you for taking the time to read and reply. Much appreciated. I have previously read that article you refer to when seeking solutions prior to posting and I believe the resistance it is referring to is salt, as opposed to other chemicals. For some reason, when I posted this update to my original thread, it did not show up on the forum as a new post, so I had to start it as a new topic entitled "FMG & PP Resistant Costia. What Treatment Now?" and that has received a number of replies, including the very valid suggestion of heating. Unfortunately, I'm just not in a position to do that for many reasons.

    I suspect that I am like many folk that dearly love fish and had dreams of having a pond without the realisation of just what was going to be involved in keeping one! If I had known before how difficult it was to keep koi (or any pond fish for that matter), that I would end up buying polycarb covers, a microscope and a pop up holding facility, and that all the pleasure the fish bring me would be outweighed by the stress of trying to keep parasites at bay, I think there is a very good chance I would have done away with the pond we inherited with the house when we moved in!

    At the very least, I would have built my filter house to accommodate more equipment than it can so that water heating may have been an option, but hindsight is a wonderful thing - especially in the world of koi!

    If you take a look at the other thread, you'll see that since posting my update above, I've also treated twice with Alparex and still have problems . All in all, I've been fighting parasites for 12 months now, and I know I'm not alone in this experience. It's very sad, especially for the fish.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  34. #19
    Sorry to hear about your problems and I am not going to be much help I’m afraid as I’m only dealing with my first outbreak of Trich and Flukes myself.
    PP’d last week and did Lernex treatment 48 hours ago so I won’t know how it’s gone until I scrape which I will try and do tomorrow.
    There does seem to be an awful lot of posts on parasites this year though.
    I hope you get a resolution Thrichodina, Skin Flukes and now Costia. Help please!


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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    I'm experiencing similar problems. Started off with a bit of fin rot on some mirror carp I added in winter (it was the time the fish farmer was harvesting so i had no choice). They seem to be healing now the water is warmer.

    But I also had a costia outbreak in very early spring. Think I sorted that, or at least got them under control. But then I had flukes, and then Trich. I feel your pain Koiz.

    This is all alongside NPS, so half the time I can't tell if it's the water parameters (the usual persistent high nitrites) causing the flashing or yet more parasites.

    I don't mind forking out for the treatments... if they work. But they seem to be very hit and miss - especially for Flukes. The amount of posts I've read where multiple treatments are used unsuccessfully has amazed / alarmed me.

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