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  1. #1
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Help Needed Please - 2nd Dead Fish

    Ok - So in short - new QT setup, filters are now maturing.

    Shower installed 3 weeks now.

    Easy Pod

    300G

    Water -

    0.25ppm Ammonia
    0.25ppm Nitrite

    IMG_4627.jpgIMG_4628.jpgIMG_4629.jpg

    This is the second fish to die in 3 days.

    Scraped 3 fish yesterday - nothing showing

    Others are feeding, and active - one behaving slightly differently - sulking slightly perhaps?

    What should I do please, any help welcome.

    Any info ive missed please ask - im writing this in a slight panic if honest.

    Thanks


    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

  2. #2
    I'm wondering if you have a WQ issue here? What are all water parameters as this could mean your ammonia is too high? Nitrite also looks high but others more knowledgable than me on this. Just my initial impression. Re ammonia. Take a look at Manky Sanke's website to find out if your ammonia reading is above threshold based on ph and temp.

    Ian

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  4. #3
    Hi again. Just had a look on MS site. Unless you have a ph of c. 8.4 or above and water temps of > c22 c, your ammonia level is likely to be within safe levels. However, I note elsewhere MS states the max safe nitrite level is 0.2 mg/l so your reading of 0.25 may be an issue? I am not saying this is the reason for your koi dying but definitely worth trying to get to a lower level.
    ian

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  6. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Hi - Thanks for your reply...

    My PH is 7.4
    Heated at 23 degrees

    I wondered if it was bacterial? But hoping that the more experienced would be able to shed some light on it perhaps?

    From what i know thus far, i think my nitrite and ammonia levels whilst not perfect are ok.
    Nitrite was a problem (spike) but thsi is now improving week on week

    Is what i'm experiencing the aftermath of the spike?

    During the spike - fish were feeding, and active.
    Not displaying typical high nitrite behavior.

    I was changing small % of water often as well as trickle in/out.
    Using ST to dechlor.

    Tested nitrate this evening = 0ppm
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  8. #5
    Hi. You may be spot on re WQ and that issues were something else. I do not have enough experience to comment on photos. Sorry. Others will I'm sure. Hope you get this sorted.
    Ian

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  10. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Sorry, but that do you mean by WQ please?

    Thanks
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  12. #7
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    Hiya, sorry to hear you're having problems.
    It's impossible to tell looking at a dead fish which of the changes have occurred since death.
    How heavily stocked is your QT?

    Nitrite can certainly do lasting damage to the fish and the ability of their blood cells to carry oxygen, so just because it is improving doesn't mean they have not been weakened by it.
    Have you tried putting filter start/pond bomb type products in to try to get some more filter bugs working?

    2 dead fish occurring close together would put me on high alert for a parasite issue also- is there any possibility you have missed costia on the scrapes? If it was costia or another nasty then more will be vulnerable, so very important to spot if you can.

    Is there any salt in your QT at the moment? I would be tempted to salt it to 0.6% in 2 stages over a couple of days, because this will help them deal with the nitrite, and might also give you an advantage if there is a parasite as yet undiscovered in there.

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  14. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Hi Feline -

    300G tank with 14 fish in there now (after losing 2)

    1 @ 9"
    3 @ 6"
    Remainder @ 3-4"

    Anything is possible I suppose, but I got a close friend to scrape, who is far more experienced than me.
    Didn't scrape the gills which may be where the problem is lurking?

    No salt present at the moment - didn't know what to do for the best if honest.
    Didn't want to add salt, then discover the 'problem' and need to treat, and couldn't treat as salt present. If that makes sense.

    I had been using EA pond balls, and filter start when I added the shower. Have stopped using EA balls for the past 2-3 weeks.

    2 dead fish in 3 days has me very concerned......
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  16. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    Help Needed Please - 2nd Dead Fish

    That's a lot of fish in 300gal. Do you have lots of air going in as it may also be an oxygen problem, the warmer the water the less oxygen it can hold.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  18. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Hi Laura - I have 30L/min going in - I did wonder that myself so added a third 50mm air stone last night making 3 air stones and an aerated ring on top of the drain.

    I also turned up the air supplying the stones last night, and the fish seem to be sitting close to them now, and appear happier (if I can say that without it sounding strange)!

    The shower also presumably helps with oxygen.
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  20. #11
    If your nitrate is truly zero, it would suggest your filters have not yet matured. Ammonia is being converted to nitrite, but the nitrite is not being converted into nitrate yet.
    You say this is your quarantine tank, do you have any mature media from your main pond you can bring over to speed up the maturing process?
    19,000 litres
    Nexus 320 with Dracodrum and submersible UV
    Blue Eco 320
    Eazy Pod on skimmer
    Dura+ 10kW Heat Pump
    15 koi

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  22. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    Yes it will help. Was it the bigger ones that died first?

    If they are sitting close to the stones that to me would suggest oxygen problems.

    Might be an idea to turn the temp down a touch too.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  24. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Yes - I seeded the K1 from the main pond before I started the QT up.

    Could it be that the shower is working efficiently and reducing the nitrate to zero/trace?

    Will reduce the temperature this evening - what would you suggest 20?

    Not really, one was on the larger size, but there are bigger fish in there - which I would've thought may have been affected first.

    Would adding salt now affect my ability to treat if a parasite presents in the coming days/weeks?
    I don't want to add salt if it will hinder my ability to treat quickly if/when I may need to?

    Also, would a lack of oxygen have the fish 'gasping' on the surface - as I hadn't seen this at all?

    Thank you everyone -
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  26. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    If you add salt it needs to be done to 0.3% and let it at that for a day or 2 then slowly increase to 0.6% over 24-48hours. You need to use an accurate salt meter to check levels though. Salt will kill most parasites except flukes but there are some treatments that can be used with salt.

    Your current temp will help their immune system. If you do drop the temp only do it slowly. If it's warm outside though you may struggle as ambient temps may well keep the water warmer.


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  28. #15
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer1 View Post
    Hi Feline -

    300G tank with 14 fish in there now (after losing 2)

    1 @ 9"
    3 @ 6"
    Remainder @ 3-4"

    Anything is possible I suppose, but I got a close friend to scrape, who is far more experienced than me.
    Didn't scrape the gills which may be where the problem is lurking?

    No salt present at the moment - didn't know what to do for the best if honest.
    Didn't want to add salt, then discover the 'problem' and need to treat, and couldn't treat as salt present. If that makes sense.

    I had been using EA pond balls, and filter start when I added the shower. Have stopped using EA balls for the past 2-3 weeks.

    2 dead fish in 3 days has me very concerned......
    The main treatments we worry about salt with are formalin based, so yes in theory you would not have a completely blank canvas in terms of treatments.

    But the trouble is, your scrapes have not identified anything, and fish have been dying.

    So you could opt to put your eggs in the 'oxygen' basket and wait and see what happens now you have more air/ cooler temps. Or you could also go with salt which would improve their ability to survive the nitrite, and have the advantage of severely curtailing most of the possible parasites. it won't do much for flukes- but you can still treat flukes with salt in there if you find any subsequently.

    I would personally turn the temp down slightly but not too much- you want optimal immune activity without pushing oxygen demands too much so 22-23 would probably be a good compromise?

    There are no absolute right and wrong answers in this situation. Unfortunately you only get to find out you did the wrong thing after the event.

    In your current situation, the only reason I would not salt would be if I thought I was going to want to stick zeolite in there.

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  30. #16
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Salt being added gradually now.

    Temp decreased to 22-23 as advised

    Increased air

    All seemed happy (no floating dead) this morning - will keep you posted, and thank you for the advice as always its very gratefully received.

    Rob
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  32. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    IMG_4637.jpgIMG_4638.jpgIMG_4639.jpg
    Afternoon guys....

    So i came out this morning to find another fish dead, this being the second utsuri.

    As you can see the mouth is in a terrible state.
    I've noticed that a few of the others are developing this redness around the mouth.

    Is this mouth rot do you think or something more sinister?


    Its also worth mentioning that two of the fish have damaged fins 1 dorsal 1 upper tail section. Now i presumed that these had damaged themselves on the aerated air ring, as they were able to swim underneath it. I've since adapted this to prevent them swimming underneath and potentially hurting themselves.

    Water now appears good:
    Ammonia 0ppm
    Nitrite 0ppm
    KH 11 drops = 195 (apparently)

    increased air still present
    feeding bare minimum
    struggling to keep temp down as its so hot - so 24
    trickle in/out on
    salt present

    Thanks
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

  33. #18
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    That is now definitely looking bacterial. I would probably repeat scrapes on 3-4 fish just to be sure. But adding Chloramine T, and taking salt up to 0.6% would be my next move if scrapes don't show anything.
    The big question is why- is everything in the system scrupulously clean?
    Any surviving fish showing any problems?

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  35. #19
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    Yes - everything is clean....really clean.
    That's the bit i don't get.
    Perhaps a fish had the issue when i added them? I'm at a loss.

    Ok - will get some Chloramine T, and will increase salt.

    Some of the fish are presenting the red mouth - presumably early stages of what this one had.
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

  36. #20
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Mark4785's Avatar
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    This looks to be Mouth Rot and it is primarily caused by either the fish consuming rotten food or the fish having been dropped on its mouth. An effective treatment is Waterlife Myxazin and separate salt baths. If the mouth has already started to rot away rather than their being just redness then I highly doubt there is much you can do to save the fish as it will be succumbing to septicaemia.
    Last edited by Mark4785; 09-07-2017 at 01:04 PM.

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