Ulcer help

[6044jason]

Hi all, have a large koi with an ulcer that i'm struggling to heal (first appeared about 4 weeks ago). It looked less red but is now red again.

I cleaned the wound with tamodine and treated pond twice with acriflavin (as a couple of other koi had very minor ulcers/marks) all is clear now except for this one.

I pulled it out again yesterday and removed what dead tissue I could and treated with tamdoine and propolis again.

Shall I leave to heal or is there anything else I can do. (Koi is too large for my quarantine tank)

Temp is 15c, PH is around 7.5, Nitrite and Ammonia 0, Nitrate 5ppm. No parasites found on scrape.

[6044jason]

20260509_103110(0).jpg

Here's a photo

[Naoki Atsumi]

20260509_103110(0).jpg

Here's a photo

This is precisely the stage at which oral administration of oxolinic acid-containing preparations, in combination with surgical treatment, is most effective！

[6044jason]

This is precisely the stage at which oral administration of oxolinic acid-containing preparations, in combination with surgical treatment, is most effective！

Don't think we can get that in the UK.

[Naoki Atsumi]

Don't think we can get that in the UK.

Of course, it would be best if we could import PARAZAN or PARAZAN D, which have a proven track record against KOI, but...

Kan-para
Aquatic Oxolinic Acid Suspension 50 Riken

From what I’ve gathered from a quick search, it seems to be available for purchase at a few places in the UK for aquaculture purposes, but I wonder if the general public can buy it too?

fisher scientific
Yorlab
Scientific Laboratory Supplies

[Alburglar]

You can't get that in the UK without a vet's prescription, scientific research licence, or possibly sometimes the rules relaxed if you have a fisheries license or similar to farming livestock, you can order wormers like supaverm if you have a registered flock number.

But it looks like you don't need it. It doesn't look puss filled or open wound. Just flappy dead bits remaining of the scale pocket, under the scales. It may look red and angry for a loooong time. It is damaged skin after all and if you had a wound that big on your arm it would take a while to heal up. As long as the scales don't die or the puss returns or the wound opens up, I would leave it. Clean water, warming summer temps and time will be the next best thing.
Maybe salt if you want.
Did my chag weeks ago and it still looks red. I watched that bugger flashing after each treatment, then figured out why. It was flashing until it had scraped all the propolis off. Little sh1t obviously didn't like the feel of it. Lol

And any damaged scales won't 'recover', they are damaged until the scale is replaced by another, which isn't an overnight process either. It can be a year, and it might not be the same colour exactly for a long long time.

My Karashi is fully healed from a jump out the pond years ago. In some lights it looks perfect. Other times, the replaced scales stand out like a sore thumb.

I think it's a case of managing expectations.
You've done a great job so far. Just keep an eye on it for the coming weeks.

[Naoki Atsumi]

I apologise for taking a view that differs entirely from the previous person's view.
We can surmise that what we are observing is the early stage of a full-blown ulcer disease that we are observing.
This is because, if you lift the scales in the affected area, you should be able to see that the lesion has progressed quite deeply.

The most common view in Japan is that, at this stage, the most effective treatment is a continuous oral course of the aforementioned antibiotics for a minimum of five days.

The subsequent footages that follows shows how the medication is mixed into the food for this purpose, and demonstrates how this has long been the mainstream treatment method here.
KOI's measures against Aeromonas infection
https://youtu.be/Nt8U9LJa624?list=PL3--geNz_JVscL00wVHSRkEKeLxBlTIKy&t=23

[Andre Asagi]

Yeah, propolis does sting a bit. I sliced a bit of my thumb off and the bandage the hospital gave me, lasted about 20 mins. So I thought "I know, I'll treat it myself". I covered the wound with propolis to seal it and yeah. It stung a bit. Not enough to make me throw myself really fast, sideways along the ground but enough.for a "Ooooh ya f**ker"

[Naoki Atsumi]

Yeah, propolis does sting a bit. I sliced a bit of my thumb off and the bandage the hospital gave me, lasted about 20 mins. So I thought "I know, I'll treat it myself". I covered the wound with propolis to seal it and yeah. It stung a bit. Not enough to make me throw myself really fast, sideways along the ground but enough.for a "Ooooh ya f**ker"

Whilst applying propolis to affected areas for its antiseptic properties seems to be a universal practice, it is worth noting that in recent years, one often hears of a method devised by enthusiasts involving soaking the KOI in dried nandina leaves for a certain period of time.
It’s only been in the last ten or so years that I’ve started hearing about this method, and as I’ve never tried it myself, I didn’t feel the need to mention it, but,

Dried nandina for medicinal baths
Given that so many people have posted about it, it must be effective.
What these accounts describe is a method whereby the KOI itself is soaked in the solution rather than applied directly to the affected area, and everyone agrees that it is effective not only for ulcerative conditions but also for skin inflammation and sores caused by other infections.

※As a supplementary information...
I found two pages containing more detailed information.
Dried Nandina Herbal Bath Q&A
Urgent recommendations on Nishikigoi diseases.

Can these be accessed from the UK?
If you are unable to access them, I believe you should be able to do so by using a workaround such as a VPN connection.

It appears that these have been frequently featured in ZNA member magazines and similar publications over the last few years.
Personally, I believe that treatment with effective oral antibiotics remains the preferred option; however, I would like to mention that these alternatives exist as folk remedies for those who find it difficult to obtain such drugs, or for those who are reluctant to use synthetic antibiotics.

[Alburglar]

Yeah, propolis does sting a bit. I sliced a bit of my thumb off and the bandage the hospital gave me, lasted about 20 mins. So I thought "I know, I'll treat it myself". I covered the wound with propolis to seal it and yeah. It stung a bit. Not enough to make me throw myself really fast, sideways along the ground but enough.for a "Ooooh ya f**ker"

That's good to know. Might have more sympathy for the fish next time. I just thought she was being a princess

[Alburglar]

Whilst applying propolis to affected areas for its antiseptic properties seems to be a universal practice, it is worth noting that in recent years, one often hears of a method devised by enthusiasts involving soaking the KOI in dried nandina leaves for a certain period of time.
It’s only been in the last ten or so years that I’ve started hearing about this method, and as I’ve never tried it myself, I didn’t feel the need to mention it, but,

Dried nandina for medicinal baths
Given that so many people have posted about it, it must be effective.
What these accounts describe is a method whereby the KOI itself is soaked in the solution rather than applied directly to the affected area, and everyone agrees that it is effective not only for ulcerative conditions but also for skin inflammation and sores caused by other infections.

※As a supplementary information...
I found two pages containing more detailed information.
Dried Nandina Herbal Bath Q&A
Urgent recommendations on Nishikigoi diseases.

Can these be accessed from the UK?
If you are unable to access them, I believe you should be able to do so by using a workaround such as a VPN connection.

It appears that these have been frequently featured in ZNA member magazines and similar publications over the last few years.
Personally, I believe that treatment with effective oral antibiotics remains the preferred option; however, I would like to mention that these alternatives exist as folk remedies for those who find it difficult to obtain such drugs, or for those who are reluctant to use synthetic antibiotics.

Looks like you can get it dried for the floral trade, which makes it a pretty expensive option over here. Or you can buy it as a plant and grow it.

[Maddog1]

20260509_103110(0).jpg

Here's a photo

Hi/ Are there any dead scales, it doesn't look that bad.

[Naoki Atsumi]

Here, the usual thing to check at this stage is to lift the scales lightly to check the penetration of the lesion inside.
Generally speaking, when lesions are visible on the body’s surface in this way, it is best to assume that the infection has already penetrated much deeper than one might expect.
If you insert a cotton swab coated with an antiseptic into the gaps between the scales, it will often slide right through nearly halfway.

Early detection at an even earlier stage is desirable as experience is gained.
It is not easy, but in addition to this, some people can detect it by the time of year, the behaviour of the KOI and the general atmosphere of the pond.