Unusual Skin Condition / Lesions - Doitsu Ochiba

[RS2OOO]

In 2019 my then 2 year old Doitsu Ochiba displayed what can only be described as swollen lateral lines. After a while they went back to normal and the fish was fine.

The same thing happened in summer 2020, as per these photos:









Over the following years it would flare up again from time to time, sometimes worse than others. She is a bit of a parasite magnet so on each occurrence I'd scrape her and sometimes found stuff, other times nothing. On one occasion she had a quite heavy fluke infestation so I put it down to possibly being that.



In August into September 2023 I had white spot immediately followed by a major fluke outbreak following the purchase of a new Koi. All Koi were flashing like crazy and the Ochiba was no exception, with her flanks being a little pink. After multiple pond treatments to eradicate the critters all the Koi healed up well, but the Ochiba still looked a bit dodgy with mucus strings, swollen lateral line and what looked like raised streaks of skin. This photo was taken in October 2023:




I took 2 massive scrapes from her that entirely covered 2x 2cm2 slides and spent over an hour going through them, and all I found was 2 suspected Costia. I ordered treatment but it got lost in the post and by the time it eventually arrived it was December and pond temp was sub 10C. By this time the Ochiba was looking fine again and not displaying any behavioural problems so I decided to leave treatment until Spring.

[RS2OOO]

The Ochiba held up fine throughout Winter and into Spring, but then in May I added an ASHP to the pond and instantly went about raising water temps, up to 19C.

Within days there was flashing in the pond and the Ochiba skin was deteriorating rapidly. I scraped and found Costia (as expected) and treated accordingly. This was a 12 day course of treatment consisting of 5 doses. About a Week after the final dose the Ochiba's skin was looking even worse with exposed flesh, peeling skin and strings of mucus hanging from the body, though tha actual skin attached to her body had very little mucus:








I scraped her again taking 2 huge scrapes and spent over an hour going through them. In that time I found a handful of fast swimming rod shaped creatures, never seen them before so no clue what they are, but don't suppose they were anything to worry about. Here's a poor quality video taken in the heat of the moment:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR2B8IGLdms


I also found 1 single suspected Costia that darted in and out of focus really quickly. I'd be around 80% certain it was a Costia, but I couldn't find any more and have not found any on subsequent scrapes.

[RS2OOO]

From early June she started isolating from the group and stopped eating. She lost weight and looked worse as time went by.

However, if I dropped cooked mussels in front of her she would eat them, so for about 2 weeks this is how I fed her, up until a couple of other Koi cottoned on and started stealing them. With this extra competition for her Mussells she started competing again which was positive, and a few days later realised she would be guaranteed food by hand feeding - So there I was putting pellets in one end of the pond and then the Ochiba would be at the surface at the opposite end waiting for her Mussells.

Every 5-6 days I was bowling her and covering her entire body (behind the gills) in Tamodine. This had to be done without sedate as the pond water is still salted from the Costia treatment.

After a couple of weeks of this she put a little weight back on and started mixing more.


But her skin still looked really bad, as follows:









These latest photos are about 12 days old now. Her skin has improved slightly but she still has a long way to go and I'm not confident of a full recovery.

Despite the issues with parasites I'm not convinced parasites are the direct cause, I have not seen her flash at all, and if that single Costia really was a Costia I'd like to think the Tamodine would have killed it off. Each time she got the Tamodine treatment I scraped her, and the last 2 scrapes have been 100% clean, and whilst there has been the odd creature, there hasn't been anything that could be identified as a parasite.

She is now fully active as are all the other Koi, and she's coming up for food with the gang again and back mixing with them all (at first she'd dart away if any got too close to her, but now she's holding her own and bashing her way through for food etc).


Anyone have any ideas as to an underlying cause?

[KiOgon]

Sorry no idea of the cause but massive credit to you for doing everything you can to look after her, I hope she pulls through, best of luck.

[g mac]

You've certainly made a valiant effort there, hope it is a good outcome. Sorry can't offer any advice though.

[Maddog1]

Hi.Only thing,I can think of would help is salt.

[RS2OOO]

Hi.Only thing,I can think of would help is salt.

Already Salted at 0.6% in mid May.

Have now stopped maintaining that level as it doesn't appear to be making a worthwhile difference (though has probably helped stave off bacterial infection when flesh was exposed), and currently down to about 0.45%

[Maddog1]

I wonder,if a certain form of antibiotics would clear it up?

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[Alburglar]

My humble opinion is, I think the lateral line issue is a weird pox. They all react different to it, from waxy lumps to all sorts of weird and wonderful and the latter seems to be an ochiba thing. My poxy ochiba gets similar where the poxy bits get knocked or scraped when there's parasites in the pond and then secondary infection would obviously be an issue.

I think just keep it clean (I would do exactly what you're doing already) and it will come and go (potentially for years) and then you never know one day it will go, hopefully.
.

[RS2OOO]

Still no improvement to skin condition, some places are healing, others getting worse.

Pulled her out for the Tamodine treatment last night and did 2 slides worth of scrapes. One slide clean, the other had 2 individual Costia across the entire slide.

I will carry out another Costia Treatment just to eliminate that as a potential cause. Still no issues across the other 13 Koi in the pond, and all are eating well.

[RS2OOO]

I have noticed that 2-3 days after coating the Ochiba with Tamodine, the skin appears to improve.

Then about 10 days later it starts to deteriorate again.

This could be coincidence or it could be an indication that it is being caused by an external source such as a parasite. In view of the 2 costia found on the last scrape, as soon as I see signs of deterioration again I'm going to carry out a Costia treatment.

[Feline]

I would imagine that raised lateral line is most likely inflammation from constant trauma when flashing?
I have one doitsu chag who damages its lateral line if it ever flashes, although does not look as weird as yours!

Your poor fish does look in a bit of a mess, well done for persevering.
Theres likely secondary infection in the skin now, so really antibiotics would be ideal.
I would put my money on costia being the underlying issue here. Have you tried a 5 day ICC course yet?

[RS2OOO]

I would imagine that raised lateral line is most likely inflammation from constant trauma when flashing?
I have one doitsu chag who damages its lateral line if it ever flashes, although does not look as weird as yours!

Your poor fish does look in a bit of a mess, well done for persevering.
Theres likely secondary infection in the skin now, so really antibiotics would be ideal.
I would put my money on costia being the underlying issue here. Have you tried a 5 day ICC course yet?

2x 5 dose courses of ICC this year, with 0.6% salt.

And Costia keeps coming back.

I had not seen the Ochiba flash a single time all year up until last week.

As before, coated her in Tamodine again, skin improved within days, then by day 10 it started shedding again, with barely distinguishable spider web type patterns.

On the 30C+ hot day we had about a week ago pond behaviour changed with a bit of morning lethargy and some late night flashing followed by minor injuries and scratches visible the following day.

4 slides taken from 2 fish, one slide clean in both cases, and less than a handful of Costia across the other 2 slides.

So I've seen enough to be reasonably confident Costia is the problem again.

Dosed Kusuri Acriflavine and Malachite yesterday (KH only 3 but run out of other options).

Fish not happy, the odd one I've managed to see through the radioactive green water has been swimming around clamped. As much as I hate to see that I'm taking it as a good sign because, a) they're all still alive after 24 hours and b) when I've seen that behaviour after an Alparex treatment, the Costia was gone.

Just not sure if I should do a 2nd dose after 7 days. Kusuri recommend 3 doses on their website, but I don't want to push the fish any further than I need to.



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[davethefish1]

Hope you get the costia sorted mate.
the ochiba is a conundrum, but sounds like you are doing all you can.

my kujaku had skin problems for years and seemed allergic to some treatments going in the water.
a low dose of CT prior to fluke treatment last year that didn't affect the other fish at all killed it in the end.

[RS2OOO]

They've all perked up and asking for food tonight, so they seem to have got through the treatment ok.

KH is still 3
pH is unchanged at just under 8.

Unfortunately there is still some flashing but I'll give things a few more days to monitor before deciding if a second dose is needed.

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[RS2OOO]

The Costia Treatment did nothing for the Ochiba. Her skin deteriorated throughout the treatment. I was using Acriflavine and Malachite.

On saturday I re-covered her in Tamodine and she's already improved a little.

Today I'll go ahead with a 2nd dose of Acriflavine and Malachite in an attempt to eliminate Costia, as there are still odd ones on slides and would obviously like them gone.

Hoping the combination of the Tamodine quickly followed by the Acriflavine and Malachite might just be enough to knock it back completely, though I'm not confident.

Aside from that, a clear pattern has developed:

Topically apply Tamodine to as much of the body as I can. 3 days later skin starts dramatically improving. After 7 days skin starts deteriorating again.

After 10 days she's back looking like the photos below.

One thing I've noticed over the long term - when temperatures drop the condition improves, or at least does not get worse.

A friend shared these photos with a vet in France who believes it could be Flexibactor Coumnaris. (Think this is generically known as cotton wool disease). I've not had time to look into this possibility but so far noted the following, which matches what I'm seeing:

It retreats in lower temperatures.

• Tamodine will kill it, but any bits missed will soon spread again.
• It should be visible under microscope at x400 (though lighting plays a big role in whether you can see it).
• I've not seen it under the scope, but fair to say I've not been looking.

Is there anyone familiar with Flexibactor Columnaris that can confirm or deny the liklihood?

What would the recommended treatment be in this scenario? There's loads online about using Acriflavine, PP, CT and various other off the shelf medications, can these be effective in my case or do I need to go down the antibiotic route?

Latest pics:

[john1]

Hi Steve,
That looks nasty mate,been having a read on it as I am sure you have and can be treated with pp and antibiotics.

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF...ter+columnaris

I am sure you've read all this,not very good at treatments and I wish you luck Steve.
Would a pp bath do any good ?

[john1]

20240806_093146.jpg

I use this for external wounds,great stuff for horses with wounds and cuts.
The best thing is it sprays on and doesnt wash off for a day or two.
I could get one for you if you cant get one and post to you.
It is good stuff.
If you get it on your hands it's hard to wash off !!!

[RS2OOO]

Thanks John for the posts and the external wound suggestion.

I've spoken to Paula Reynolds today and her first thought is that this is probably not Columnaris.

A blood sample would be required for diagnosis, or possibly a swab. She felt the swab option may be inconclusive but since that's the easier option for me as a hobbyist to try out, that's the route I've chosen to start off with.

The reason why the swab option may be inconclusive is because she feels despite the external appearance, the root cause could be an internal issue.

[john1]

Hope you can get it sorted Steve, your in the right hands with Paula.