Unusual Skin Condition / Lesions - Doitsu Ochiba

[RS2OOO]

At time of 1st injection:





5 days later at time of 2nd injection:





There is an improvemt but on each injection I've coated the entire body in Tamodine, and prior to starting the antibiotics Tamodine alone would clear up the body so it is too early to say whether the injections are definitely working.

She did feel stronger in the bowl this time round.

She's still isolating, but remains fairly active, darts away when another Koi goes near her and will not come up for food with the others. I have no sinking food so she's still being hand-fed mussels away from the main group and getting around 4-6 mussels a day.

After both sedations / injections she came up for food around 2 hours later which was a relief.

Immediately after the 2nd injection she stopped breathing and both myself and wife thought she had died on the operating table, massaged her and a minute later saw a tiny fin twitch and she eventually came round ok.

[john1]

Hows she doing now Steve?

[RS2OOO]

Slight improvement, but there's been an issue with the medication - won't go into it here but there was a miscommunication with the frequency of injections, so she now needs more injections but there's a national shortage of the main antibiotics she needs so I potentially have a 2 hour round trip to go and collect further injections from the nearest vet that has them in stock.

Something Paula wanted me to make absolutely clear having read this thread......

Any discussion of medication, antibiotics, diagnosis etc needs to be absolutely clear that they apply to this Koi only following a thorough lab analysis. If anybody reads this thread and have Koi with the same symptoms they must be aware that the medication, frequency and administration of the medication that I am following will not apply to their Koi. This is a unique and highly unusual scenario, and there is no assurance that the protocol I'm following will work long term for my own fish, let alone anybody elses because there could be further undiagnosed causes that cannot be determined without the fish itself being tested in a lab..... which is a one way process (i.e, you don't get the fish back afterwards!).


Aside from that, I noticed black patches on the fish this morning. I need to take more photos at the next injection and refer back to Paula.
I've seen a side effect of antibiotics in humans that turn your tongue black and I wonder if its the same sort of thing.

[Maddog1]

Never easy mate, I feel your pain.

[Manky Sanke]

Slight improvement, but there's been an issue with the medication - won't go into it here but there was a miscommunication with the frequency of injections, so she now needs more injections but there's a national shortage of the main antibiotics she needs so I potentially have a 2 hour round trip to go and collect further injections from the nearest vet that has them in stock.

Something Paula wanted me to make absolutely clear having read this thread......

Any discussion of medication, antibiotics, diagnosis etc needs to be absolutely clear that they apply to this Koi only following a thorough lab analysis. If anybody reads this thread and have Koi with the same symptoms they must be aware that the medication, frequency and administration of the medication that I am following will not apply to their Koi. This is a unique and highly unusual scenario, and there is no assurance that the protocol I'm following will work long term for my own fish, let alone anybody elses because there could be further undiagnosed causes that cannot be determined without the fish itself being tested in a lab..... which is a one way process (i.e, you don't get the fish back afterwards!).


Aside from that, I noticed black patches on the fish this morning. I need to take more photos at the next injection and refer back to Paula.
I've seen a side effect of antibiotics in humans that turn your tongue black and I wonder if its the same sort of thing.

Just to emphasise the important point in Steve's (RS2000) third paragraph. I regularly talk to Paula and confirm that she has always emphasised that an antibiotic treatment for one fish will not apply to another koi even if it appears to exhibit the same signs.

[Manky Sanke]

Deleted duplicate post.

[john1]

Makes sence the comment from Paula and well put.

Any idea the cause of this or is it just one of those ailments?

You are doing your best for your koi Steve cant ask for more than that mate.

[RS2OOO]

Any idea the cause of this or is it just one of those ailments?

.

Unfortunately not.

Paula thinks it most likely to be from an underlying primary condition that has existed all, or most of its life.

Which means the antibiotics might only be a medium term fix.

The question I have to ask myself is where do I stop..... I can see continued investigations and medications turning into a 4 figure cost at this rate. The Koi itself was one of the cheapest in the pond.

[john1]

Unfortunately not.

Paula thinks it most likely to be from an underlying primary condition that has existed all, or most of its life.

Which means the antibiotics might only be a medium term fix.

The question I have to ask myself is where do I stop..... I can see continued investigations and medications turning into a 4 figure cost at this rate. The Koi itself was one of the cheapest in the pond.

Suppose you have to ask yourself where do I draw the line Steve.

[davethefish1]

sorry it's a tough call mate,
with our furry freinds most vets will kind of tell when you should call it a day.
but keeping fish it's all up to you.

my kujaku had a skin condition is whole life, and used to sit right in front of the pond return where the water was warmest all day.
I think it was as an allergic condition that would have good days and bad days but never go away.
the only thing was it reacted badly to pond medication, and that eventually took the desicion out of my hands one day after a very mild dose of CT before fluke treatment last year.

It might sound cruel but since the two 'weakest' disease prone fish in my pond have gone,
the rest have been much healthier and happier....

[RS2OOO]

Since my vet was out of stock, I had to find another vet to obtain 4 more injections - The first 2 injections are now wasted as I was unable to continue to the course due to my vet running out, and then waiting a week to obtain more.

My vet quoted £85 for 2 injections (but only charged £75 when I collected).
This new vet charged £10 per injection (4 more in total)! Unbelievable difference which does beg some questions.

Here's last night's photos.
No doubt the lesions have significantly reduced, but her skin is still peeling and this is difficult to pick up on camera but I've kind of managed it in a couple of photos though it looks worse in person. She also has black patches on the skin which I can only guess might be a side effect of the antibiotics (like the ones that make your tongue go black because the antibiotics also kill the good bacteria that prevents fungal infections etc).

Behavior wise she is still isolating but you can see that sudden flex of the fins when you go near the pond at feeding times and she's straight up at the far end of the pond for her hand-fed mussels.

[BrucePondsteen]

Good luck mate, shame you needed to get more antibiotics. The fish is still going though and those meds will help.

I found after I had given my chag the full course of antibiotics, it still took a couple months before it was fully better again. In the end I decided to return it to the main pond and give it a break from treatments, and just focus on giving it a stable environment to aid recovery which helped I think. There’s only so much you can do at the end of the day, and you’ve certainly done your best. Hoping she pulls through!


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[RS2OOO]

The treatment protocol is not as smooth as I first hoped.

The recommended antibiotic only needed 2 injections 5 days apart.

The vet didn't have any so prescribed the next best antibiotic. I did the 2 injections 5 days apart, then Paula contacted to ask about progress and I told her. She said oh no, the antibiotic they've prescribed works differently, that one needs 5 injections every other day. Paula had avoided recommending that one because of the extra stress on the fish etc.

Anyway the fish took those injections remarkably well so Paula advised to now just stick to the same antibiotic but obtain 4 more injections to administer every other day.

Then the vet was out of stock but said if I can find another vet who'll prescribe she'll email them the prescription.

24 hours of ringing vets and I found one, an hour's journey away. The prescription was sent over but was missing some information. By the time I got the injections there had now been a 6 day gap from the previous injection.

First injection of this 2nd batch was administered on Wednesday 18th Sept.
Next one is due today, Friday 20th.
Then another on Sunday and finally another next Tuesday.


Last night, for the first time, the Ochiba came up near the main crowd and took some pellets. She spat some out but I think she kept hold of a couple and ate them. This is the first time she's come up to the main feeding area near to other Koi in over a Month.

I'm gradually lowering temps now before going away for a few weeks. Hopefully lower temps will slow everything down, including her appetite as she's not likely to get any food through that period unless she rapidly recovers.

The rest of the Koi look great.

[RS2OOO]

6th and final injection was administered last night.

I would say the level of improvement currently looks poor. The hemorrhaging keeps coming through despite the repeated Tamodine treatments.

She is still sloughing layers of skin (hard to see in pics when she's out the water, and hard to see in photos anyway, but its clear to see in person).

The other day I thought her gills looked pale, but actually based on this pic below I now think they look healthy. Any opinions?

Gradually bringing pond temps down for winter which I think will slow down the effects of her condition so hopefully she'll make it through to next Spring, and then if it all starts up again its back to the drawing board.

She's only eating hand-fed mussels and will only come to me, she won't touch pellets, which means no food for the next 3 weeks as I am away and have someone else feeding the koi.

[samp09]

Really is a difficult one mate as you are exploring all avenues and seem to not be getting a great deal of progress, certainly not with the skin issue anyway.

Is there something that could be leaching into the water like a wood treatment or something that prehaps this fish is sensitive too and thats why it won't heal?

[RS2OOO]

Really is a difficult one mate as you are exploring all avenues and seem to not be getting a great deal of progress, certainly not with the skin issue anyway.

Is there something that could be leaching into the water like a wood treatment or something that prehaps this fish is sensitive too and thats why it won't heal?

There is the pergola, which I painted with cuprinol water based garden fence paint back in early 2022. But her lateral line was swelling up as far back as 2019 / 2020 back at my old house, and so far I've assumed this is related to that condition.

I guess it can't be ruled out entirely. I remove the pergola slats in winter due to the wind pressure against them bending the posts, so they will be coming down next Month (and her condition did improve last winter - assumed due to the cold temps).

Other than that I really can't think of anything that's different, aside from the shower (2 years) and ASHP (added tin May).

[Maddog1]

6th and final injection was administered last night.

I would say the level of improvement currently looks poor. The hemorrhaging keeps coming through despite the repeated Tamodine treatments.

She is still sloughing layers of skin (hard to see in pics when she's out the water, and hard to see in photos anyway, but its clear to see in person).

The other day I thought her gills looked pale, but actually based on this pic below I now think they look healthy. Any opinions?

Gradually bringing pond temps down for winter which I think will slow down the effects of her condition so hopefully she'll make it through to next Spring, and then if it all starts up again its back to the drawing board.

She's only eating hand-fed mussels and will only come to me, she won't touch pellets, which means no food for the next 3 weeks as I am away and have someone else feeding the koi.

From the picture, they do seem a bit pale. I don't think I would be overly worried though.