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Thread: Deaths after FMG treatment
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10-11-2021, 12:38 AM #21
The other thing that tells me this is probably chemical burns is that the Kohaku pictured which died today had perfect fins and gill plates pre FMG treatment and afterwards they are all damaged, I assume burnt. Another of the dead fish also has this and one that is currently alive but I suspect soon to be dead also…
This happened post treatment and I feel highly likely the gill burns did also
For whatever reason, the same treatment which I have done in the past at the same dosage with the same brand with not a hint of issue has resulted in burns and death this time
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10-11-2021, 12:42 AM #22
Was your water meter WRAS certified? You say it was digital- I’m hoping not one of those cheap Gardena ones as they have been proved to me massively wrong unfortunately.
2016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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10-11-2021, 08:20 AM #23
Thanks Feline, it isn’t a Gardena but is an inline meter and on checking, isn’t wras approved as far as I can tell.
I’ve just been reading up and sounds like I now need to validate my volume and the best way to do that now the pond is filled seems to be using the salt method. I’ve always wanted to steer clear of salt except for baths but sounds like this is a very low amount…
Manky Sanke advises aiming for a 2ppt increase in salt which he gives as roughly 2kg per 1000litres so I think that means I need 380KG of PDV food grade salt for my 190,000 litres. Obviously that’s a hell of a lot of salt but it is a huge pond.
In terms of a salinity meter, is the Koi Medic meter ok? Or any other recommendations?
I don’t want to go through anything like this ever again so will do whatever necessary to protect against it and validating the volume is worthwhile. I have used the same dosage treatment in the past multiple times and fish were never even remotely upset by it so I would be surprised if the volume is wrong by a large margin but I definitely want to check.
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10-11-2021, 08:26 AM #24
Not worth getting the fish out into a pool, draining and refilling the pond with a good meter on? Would clear the chemicals out of the pond?
13,243 gallons, Filtreau HF30’s K1 capacity of 1,400l, Bakki Shower, BHM and understanding wife
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webber498 Thanked / Liked this Post
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10-11-2021, 03:00 PM #25
I’ve thought about it but I’ve got 45 fish in here. And quite a lot of large ones (around half of them are in the 60cm - 85cm range) and quite a few more are over 50cm so I’d need a good few pools. I can’t easily extract my drums or shower to try to run pools either, it’s a huge gas boiler that heats it too so i don’t have a viable way of doing it.
Plus it takes almost 2 weeks to refill the pond once empty, then would need to bring it back up to heat (currently 23c) so I just don’t think it’s doable without having properly filtered and heated pools.
I worry the stress would finish off the ones that are suffering and it has been 8 days since the treatment went in now so I’m not sure how likely there is to be toxins lingering.
Really hard to know what to do for the best in the situation. I’m hopeful the majority of the others are going to pull through as they look a lot brighter today, there are some flashing and hanging in the water for a period then starting to swim around some more again
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10-11-2021, 03:53 PM #26
I know can’t be deemed conclusive but I managed to get a small amount of formalin out of the bottom of the 500ml bottle I had bought as I had used that one in full so there wasn’t much left from that bottle.
As I reminder I bought a 500ml and 2.5l bottle at the same time last week and used them straight away. The sample from the 500ml appears to be cloudy whereas the sample from the 2.5l bottle appears clear. I’m told that cloudy means the formalin can be toxic. The 2.5l bottle has a 2024 expiry and the 500ml 2023 so nowhere near expiry date.
As I say, not conclusive as they have been in a recycling bin for almost a week but I can say for sure that I will never again use formalin without first checking it in a clear container as I believe it is possible the formalin was bad when it went in.
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10-11-2021, 05:49 PM #27
as a thought to remove as much of the chemicals in the pond as quickly possible,
you could get a 10-25kg sack of pelletised activated carbon, and put it in a few large fine nylon mesh bags.
put in a bay of your filtration or on the top of a shower.
will help quickly pull a lot of the chemicals out of the water....
then discard.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301016793...r=600168098304
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373446655303
...that formalin in the first pic doesn't look good.
what temperature was it stored at?Last edited by davethefish1; 10-11-2021 at 05:52 PM.
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webber498 Thanked / Liked this Post
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10-11-2021, 05:51 PM #28
Thanks Dave that’s a great idea actually!
I may see if I can get to the local aquatics shop now before it closes and do exactly that. I could fit a fair bit in the top of my shower
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10-11-2021, 06:06 PM #29
Sad to say I’ve just found my Shiro dead so that’s 5 now :-(
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10-11-2021, 06:31 PM #30
If I am correct and the formaldehyde was bad I understand it turns into Paraformaldehyde which is lethal to fish.
Does anybody happen to know whether it is likely to still be present in the water a week after treatment? And if so is there anything I can safely neautralise it with?
I am water changing but it’s a slow process
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10-11-2021, 07:36 PM #31
Sorry I didn’t reply to your question at the end.
I never stored the formalin. I bought it and added to pond the same afternoon. Wish I had known to check the colour in a clear container before putting in. Hard lesson to learn! I am convinced formalin gone bad is the cause of all this, I just don’t know if it’s likely to still be in the water and toxic after a week or not.
I missed the shop for the activated carbon but will try to do that in the morning
If anybody has any other suggestions to remove remaining chemicals (if there are any left after a week) I’d welcome them. I’ve PM’d Manky to see if he has any ideas as I’m a bit desperate.
Thanks
Adam
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davethefish1 Thanked / Liked this Post
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11-11-2021, 12:28 AM #32
Sorry to read about your koi losses
As affirmation of what others have said, nothing wrong with the dosage you used, I've used even higher dosages than Duncan's and seen some distress but never a death, but my pH is much higher than yours and this does make a difference to the toxicity/life span of the chemicals.
I agree with everything Smartin said.
Lack of oxygen I think is a factor here (did you say pond was at 23C? That would contribute to the oxygen theory).
On top of that if the Formalin was indeed bad, which is not unheard of even with long expiry dates (and I've heard of it more with NT Labs Formalin compared to Kusuri) then the lack of oxygen is neither here nor there, the toxicity of the crystallised Formalin would finish them off.
Sent from my Pixel 4a using TapatalkLast edited by RS2OOO; 11-11-2021 at 12:32 AM.
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davethefish1, webber498 Thanked / Liked this Post
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11-11-2021, 06:24 AM #33
Thank you for the reply, yes holding 23c still at present. This is my first winter heated and I had been feeding heavily and pushing the food for as long as I could. As much as anything I have been seeing how well the boiler can perform with the pond uncovered. Plan was to gradually start dropping temp throughout December…
Like you say, oxygen could’ve been a factor but I also suspect it was the toxic formalin that was the major contributor to the deaths.
Having a lot of sleepless nights over this, a truly awful experience. Praying I don’t lose more today but I just don’t know whether there is still some residual chemical in the water slowly poisoning them further or whether it is just the fishes organs finally giving in after trying to survive for the last week.
I suppose I should consider myself lucky it was only 500ml of the 2.8L dose that was bad or I’d probably be looking at a total loss.
I contacted the shop I bought the treatments from and suggested they check some of the other 500ml bottles to try to save anybody else from going through this.
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11-11-2021, 10:02 AM #34
Sad to say a sixth has now died this morning. A really nice Otsuka Kohaku
Just want this nightmare to end now
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11-11-2021, 10:20 AM #35
Heart breaking this thread mate really sorry for your issues and hope that is the last fish you lose mate
Sent from my SM-G973F using TapatalkFreddyboy the legend
"we are water keepers first"
Johnathan
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11-11-2021, 10:24 AM #36
My thoughts are with you. It is that feeling of hopelessness not being able to do anything with any sense of it being the correct thing to do.
Most of the damage has probably already been done to those most affected to their gills. Maybe you could give some respite to those most affected in a temporary pond whilst treating the main pond with activated carbon as suggested.
It was agony for myself when I had my PH crash at the beginning of the year and subsequent losses of half my fish, through subsequent bacterial infection of the weakened fish, so look out for other factors that may contribute to extra strain on the surging fish’s immune systems. The ASHP allowed me to nurture the rest back to health but not before a year of being attacked by parasites. Fingers crossed for next year to be betterLast edited by Mike Bass; 11-11-2021 at 12:43 PM.
1kGal BD/Skim RDF/UV/k1 2.3kGal 2windows 2airBD/skim Sieve/Eazypod RDFcombi+bakki 3xVP/UV,ASHP
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11-11-2021, 10:56 AM #37Freddyboy the legend
"we are water keepers first"
Johnathan
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webber498 Thanked / Liked this Post
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11-11-2021, 12:18 PM #38
Hi Webber 458,
have you emailed Syd - Manke Sanke, if anyone on here will now how to neutrilise the effects of the chemicals the quickest way he will surely know, unfortunately damage would of been done already but as each hour ticks by the solution is weakning, have you been able to add extra air, the large ceramic discs are a good temp measure easily obtainable.... sorry to hear of another loss, as everyone has said its the worst feeling ever and we feel for you mate, at some point most of us have been in this situation.....2200 gallons,infinity window,
Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
Shower, ASHP
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11-11-2021, 12:53 PM #39
Adam sent me a PM to ask for my opinion and I'll answer on here for anyone else who might be interested.
The picture of the reside in the bottle gives the appearance of paraformaldehyde (the crystals that form if formalin is stored incorrectly) but there’s no standard half life for it because it decomposes at different rates under different conditions so it isn’t possible to state how long it will take to decay to an insignificant level. If it was very sunny, I'd expect it to have decomposed by now. Daylight isn’t very strong at this time of year but a UV will speed the process. A series of large water changes will obviously help reduce any toxin in the water but the length of time it’s taking to do them is making this a slow process so is it possible to move the fish to a temporary home such as a paddling pool while you drain and refill the pond?
However, don’t get sidetracked and focus solely on the possibility of paraformaldehyde poisoning. From the photos, I would say that any damage to the gills resulting from the formalin treatment has already been done and this may well be the actual cause of the losses but there’s also the possibility of the damage having another cause which has been exacerbated by the formalin. Paula is the best person to advise on this and you may have missed her yesterday because she switches off the phones at around 4 pm at this time of year. Have you managed to talk to her today because she may say that her Pond Detox Formula (PDF) may help?
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11-11-2021, 12:54 PM #40
Thanks guys, heartbreaking situation
I spoke with Paula this morning and if indeed the Formalin was bad then the Paraformaldehyde crystals stay in the water and it is hard to estimate how long for. They will gradually be poisoning more of my fish. We can’t work out another reason for the current situation so I have to work on the basis that is what is going on here.
I’m limited in what I can do but I am doing the following:
1) fish that are look to be suffering are coming out into a pool in my garage and I am pulling together a makeshift filter system
2) the crystals will likely sit near the bottom of the pond so I am purging the 4 bottom drains to empty as much of the pond as possible without it going under the minimum limit to run the drums and heater. I will continue to refill from there and do the same again in a few days
3) active carbon being added to shower as it can only help
Really sad situation and I hope this thread helps other hobbyists should they ever be unfortunate enough to have something like this happen
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The Daily pond temp thread
Pond still covered, currently 11.6C Been really mild this year as far as pond temps go. ...