Welcome to Koi Forum. Is this your first visit? Register
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917

    Think i might have to euthanise one of my koi

    one of my koi, the showa.
    has had some swim bladder issues since i first got him.
    though he was able to swim around fine during the day, he always ended up resting on the bottom overnight.
    over the last couple of years this has gradually got worse, and though i have repeatedly scraped, i found nothing.
    and have since kept the water above 20C, given salt baths, and hand fed peas. but to no avail.

    during the last 12 months he has struggled to feed, and wouldn't eat pellets.
    but only tiny amounts of fresh cockles, or melon placed right under his nose.

    he hasn't fed at all now for the last 4 or 5 months, though most of that time was in a shallow temporary pond.
    the other fish are all fine.

    latterly he used to dash around the pond for a few seconds, before dropping like a stone to the bottom.
    but now rarely moves from one bottom corner.

    i've hoped it would resolve it's self.
    but it has been slowly getting worse for so long, i don't think it is going to improve and i don't want to see him suffer unnecessarily.
    i'm just really struggling to come to terms with the decision to actually do it.



  2. Thanks Frimley Koi keeper, Ajm Thanked / Liked this Post
  3. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    3,346
    Thanks / Likes
    6799
    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    one of my koi, the showa.
    has had some swim bladder issues since i first got him.
    though he was able to swim around fine during the day, he always ended up resting on the bottom overnight.
    over the last couple of years this has gradually got worse, and though i have repeatedly scraped, i found nothing.
    and have since kept the water above 20C, given salt baths, and hand fed peas. but to no avail.

    during the last 12 months he has struggled to feed, and wouldn't eat pellets.
    but only tiny amounts of fresh cockles, or melon placed right under his nose.

    he hasn't fed at all now for the last 4 or 5 months, though most of that time was in a shallow temporary pond.
    the other fish are all fine.

    latterly he used to dash around the pond for a few seconds, before dropping like a stone to the bottom.
    but now rarely moves from one bottom corner.

    i've hoped it would resolve it's self.
    but it has been slowly getting worse for so long, i don't think it is going to improve and i don't want to see him suffer unnecessarily.
    i'm just really struggling to come to terms with the decision to actually do it.
    Ah sorry to hear this Dave, it isn't ever an easy decision but sometimes its for the best. If this was going to resolve itself I feel like it would have already happened, especially as we are at the end of summer. It sounds like you have done all you can for it and turned every possible stone over without any joy.

    One of my Kohaku tosai I got from Adam Byer in spring has got severe mouth rot on one side. I didn't even notice it as the fish is a bit timid as it is and would often sit below the window level then I got it out after a few days to scrape it and was shocked to see half its mouth is completely gone and all ulcerated. I feel awful for not noticing it but even with a window I didn't see it and I am in two minds with what to do, have been salt bathing it with acraflavin but it isn't improving, I think its too far gone now and it isn't the most active fish so I am thinking I may have to euthanise as well This one hadn't grown a great deal and the other one that has, has lost most the beni on it so not had a great result with them two!

  4. Thanks davethefish1, Frimley Koi keeper, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  5. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    Ah sorry to hear this Dave, it isn't ever an easy decision but sometimes its for the best. If this was going to resolve itself I feel like it would have already happened, especially as we are at the end of summer. It sounds like you have done all you can for it and turned every possible stone over without any joy.

    One of my Kohaku tosai I got from Adam Byer in spring has got severe mouth rot on one side. I didn't even notice it as the fish is a bit timid as it is and would often sit below the window level then I got it out after a few days to scrape it and was shocked to see half its mouth is completely gone and all ulcerated. I feel awful for not noticing it but even with a window I didn't see it and I am in two minds with what to do, have been salt bathing it with acraflavin but it isn't improving, I think its too far gone now and it isn't the most active fish so I am thinking I may have to euthanise as well This one hadn't grown a great deal and the other one that has, has lost most the beni on it so not had a great result with them two!
    thanks for the support mate,
    i've found it a lot tougher decision to make, than i thought.

    it was a lot easier decision to make with smaller reef fish,
    i'm usually quite pragmatic, but maybe i'm just getting soft in my old age...

    i'm going to have to wait until the missus is away at work one day,
    as she will not want to be anywhere near the house...

  6. Thanks Frimley Koi keeper, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  7. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    3,346
    Thanks / Likes
    6799
    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    thanks for the support mate,
    i've found it a lot tougher decision to make, than i thought.

    it was a lot easier decision to make with smaller reef fish,
    i'm usually quite pragmatic, but maybe i'm just getting soft in my old age...

    i'm going to have to wait until the missus is away at work one day,
    as she will not want to be anywhere near the house...
    I think koi have so much character per fish and you almost hope to wake for a miracle or see a little sign that makes things seem better with the fishes behaviour you convince yourself to give it a little more time. I had to euthanise my momotaro Showa as it had an infection which started in the dorsal fin then spread into the body. I was salt bathing and acriflavine dipping it frequently and it didn't get worse but seemed to be improving then I decided to sedate and topically clean the area again hoping it would help improve things further as it seemed to have turned a corner but unfortunately it did the polar opposite and the fish never was the same after then gradually pineconed worse every day till I had to unfortunately do the deed.
    I am still gutted about that fish now as it was growing really well and not only that, but was the first fish I picked out and brought since my daughter was born so hoped it would grow with her. I also got a 50cm nisai gin rin asagi at this time which is doing well but was absolutely gutted about the showa being a Tosai and was a beautiful fish too. This is why I decided enough was enough and have got the drum and making huge improvements to my filtration both with the pond and the water fed into it so I can eliminate all potential areas of crap water, but ultimately I think its the endless fluke battle that cost me the fish.

  8. Thanks davethefish1, Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  9. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    1,431
    Thanks / Likes
    2641
    Sorry Dave, know exactly how you feel. Had to do the same thing a few years back, to an Ogon that had been in my pond thirty something years. It was truly a miserable job but one that I really felt, couldn't be put off.

  10. Thanks davethefish1, Frimley Koi keeper, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  11. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    1,431
    Thanks / Likes
    2641
    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    Ah sorry to hear this Dave, it isn't ever an easy decision but sometimes its for the best. If this was going to resolve itself I feel like it would have already happened, especially as we are at the end of summer. It sounds like you have done all you can for it and turned every possible stone over without any joy.

    One of my Kohaku tosai I got from Adam Byer in spring has got severe mouth rot on one side. I didn't even notice it as the fish is a bit timid as it is and would often sit below the window level then I got it out after a few days to scrape it and was shocked to see half its mouth is completely gone and all ulcerated. I feel awful for not noticing it but even with a window I didn't see it and I am in two minds with what to do, have been salt bathing it with acraflavin but it isn't improving, I think its too far gone now and it isn't the most active fish so I am thinking I may have to euthanise as well This one hadn't grown a great deal and the other one that has, has lost most the beni on it so not had a great result with them two!
    That's a shame Sam. You've been unlucky with those two

  12. Thanks Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  13. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by g mac View Post
    Sorry Dave, know exactly how you feel. Had to do the same thing a few years back, to an Ogon that had been in my pond thirty something years. It was truly a miserable job but one that I really felt, couldn't be put off.
    thanks, g mac,
    it helps with others sharing thier experiences.

    i think it would be easier if he looked a lot worse than he is,
    but i don't think it's right to watch him waste away and wait for him to get to that point.

  14. Thanks g mac Thanked / Liked this Post
  15. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion dbs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    East Norfolk
    Posts
    2,142
    Thanks / Likes
    3485
    Always a horrible decision Dave, one I hate and I try no end to keep them going

    Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

  16. Thanks davethefish1, Gazkoi, Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  17. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai arceye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Cleveleys, Lancs
    Posts
    880
    Thanks / Likes
    2053
    Ultimately its your call Dave, I think you will know if the time is right, it never gets easier ending a life, in fact I find it gets harder. When I was younger I could happily club a fish on the head and think little of it, yet I had to euthanise an old goldfish a couple of months back and had tears in my eyes and was apologising to it as I overdosed with clove oil.

    If you do it with the most kindness you can, and having done all you can for it which it sounds like you have, then that's all you can do really and its kinder than letting it suffer if it has got to that point.

  18. Thanks davethefish1, samp09, Frimley Koi keeper, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  19. #10
    There is a great deal of misunderstanding about euthanasia. So, if all attempted medical treatments fail and euthanasia is the only choice, this is the correct way to euthanise a fish with information sourced from the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and the recommendations of Fish Veterinarian Richmond Loh of Australia.

    A ten times overdose of the anaesthetic phenoxyethanol is the recommended way to euthanase a fish. However, although clove oil (Eugenol) isn’t the best way to euthanase because it irritates the gills, it is immediately available from pharmacists. So, if a fish is suffering, you may consider it preferable to end its life quickly with clove oil even though it may experience some gill irritation for a few minutes rather than to allow it to continue to suffer until you can obtain some phenoxyethanol.

    Put the fish into a suitable sized container with a known amount of pond water and slowly, over the course of a few minutes, add the overdose amount of phenoxyethanol (or clove oil if it is not available) so that the koi slowly becomes sedated and then euthanised rather than panicked.

    Since the lethal dose of phenoxyethanol or any other anaesthetic, is ten times the usual dose for anaesthesia, you can easily calculate the lethal dose from the manufacturer’s instructions. If you use clove oil, 20 drops per litre is a lethal dose.

    Being an oily liquid, clove oil won’t dissolve in water so don’t add it directly to the container. Add the required number of drops for the amount of water in the bowl into a jar half full of pond water and give it a vigorous shake. Although clove oil won’t dissolve, this method will disperse it evenly in the water. Pour about one tenth of the mixture into the container, stir to mix it and cover in case the fish tries to jump out. Slowly add more as the koi becomes calm and gill movements slow.

    Depending on size, with either clove oil or an anaesthetic, the fish will be unconscious very quickly and be dead within half an hour of its gill movements ceasing. However, since some people are concerned that it might only be unconscious and recover later, you might want to leave it in the container overnight in a garage or shed where cats or foxes can’t get to it.

  20. Thanks arceye, davethefish1, Gazkoi, Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  21. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    There is a great deal of misunderstanding about euthanasia. So, if all attempted medical treatments fail and euthanasia is the only choice, this is the correct way to euthanise a fish with information sourced from the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and the recommendations of Fish Veterinarian Richmond Loh of Australia.

    A ten times overdose of the anaesthetic phenoxyethanol is the recommended way to euthanase a fish. However, although clove oil (Eugenol) isn’t the best way to euthanase because it irritates the gills, it is immediately available from pharmacists. So, if a fish is suffering, you may consider it preferable to end its life quickly with clove oil even though it may experience some gill irritation for a few minutes rather than to allow it to continue to suffer until you can obtain some phenoxyethanol.

    Put the fish into a suitable sized container with a known amount of pond water and slowly, over the course of a few minutes, add the overdose amount of phenoxyethanol (or clove oil if it is not available) so that the koi slowly becomes sedated and then euthanised rather than panicked.

    Since the lethal dose of phenoxyethanol or any other anaesthetic, is ten times the usual dose for anaesthesia, you can easily calculate the lethal dose from the manufacturer’s instructions. If you use clove oil, 20 drops per litre is a lethal dose.

    Being an oily liquid, clove oil won’t dissolve in water so don’t add it directly to the container. Add the required number of drops for the amount of water in the bowl into a jar half full of pond water and give it a vigorous shake. Although clove oil won’t dissolve, this method will disperse it evenly in the water. Pour about one tenth of the mixture into the container, stir to mix it and cover in case the fish tries to jump out. Slowly add more as the koi becomes calm and gill movements slow.

    Depending on size, with either clove oil or an anaesthetic, the fish will be unconscious very quickly and be dead within half an hour of its gill movements ceasing. However, since some people are concerned that it might only be unconscious and recover later, you might want to leave it in the container overnight in a garage or shed where cats or foxes can’t get to it.

    thanks Syd,
    i have kusuri koi sedate (masuizai) which is phenoxyethanol and stated as 10ml per 9 litres of pond water for a standard anesthetic dose.
    then the dosage stated on most merchants web pages is 2 times standard dose for euthanasia.
    though kusuri's website dosn't actually mention dosage for euthanasia.

    should I err on the side of caution and use 10 times the standard dose at 100ml per 9 litres of pond water?
    Last edited by davethefish1; 10-09-2021 at 02:55 PM.

  22. Thanks Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  23. #12
    Anaesthesia of pets is Lara's area so she may want to comment but here is my understanding:

    For fish, the depth of anaesthesia depends on the concentration in the water and body mass so using a lower dose will mean that the fish is lightly sedated and there will be no problem in it recovering full consciousness but you have to be aware that, for longer procedures, it may begin to recover before you've finished. A higher dose will induce deeper and longer unconsciousness but the deeper you go, the longer recovery will take with the attendant risk of going too deep for the fish to recover. You euthanise a fish by putting it into a very deep state of unconsciousness then leaving it until gill movements have ceased for some time.

    For euthanasia, the AVMA and Richmond Loh recommend using ten times the normal anaesthetic dose and leaving the fish in the resultant unconscious state for 30 minutes after gill movements cease although, that dose for that length of time, is a guaranteed way to euthanase a fish no matter what size. Since I've had questions or worries from squeamish hobbyists that, if a fish is disposed of in a dustbin after having been euthanised, it may recover later and die a slow painful death amongst the rubbish, I added the bit that it could be left in the solution overnight in a shed to be absolutely certain.

  24. Thanks arceye, davethefish1, Rockfella, dbs, Gazkoi, Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  25. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    13,544
    Thanks / Likes
    19237
    Sorry to hear about your fish Dave. At the end of the day you have to make the decision you think is best.

    I've used that Kusuri Sedate to knock out some fish and did see the instructions said only 3 x the stated dose for euthanasia which I thought was a bit close to just sedating them but as Syd says go for 10 times the dose if you have to go that route?

    Maybe you could try it out on my next door neighbour, you know get some practice in and put him out of my misery
    ________________________________________________
    All we ever wanted was everything,
    All we ever got was cold,
    Get up, eat jelly, sandwich bars and barbed wire,
    Squash every week into a day.

  26. Thanks davethefish1, g mac, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  27. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    Sorry to hear about your fish Dave. At the end of the day you have to make the decision you think is best.

    I've used that Kusuri Sedate to knock out some fish and did see the instructions said only 3 x the stated dose for euthanasia which I thought was a bit close to just sedating them but as Syd says go for 10 times the dose if you have to go that route?

    Maybe you could try it out on my next door neighbour, you know get some practice in and put him out of my misery
    thanks,
    i was talking about it with someone while i was at the koi collection picking up some more masuizai today.
    he said it's the right thing to do when there is nothing else left to try, and no realistic hope of recovery.
    he had to do it a while ago with a fish he'd had a long time and it wasn't easy.
    it's hard enough when you have to take a pet to the vets for this, just feels worse when you have to be the one to do it.

  28. Thanks Ajm, Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
  29. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    East Sussex
    Posts
    2,464
    Thanks / Likes
    5204
    Hi Dave,
    sorry to read this..... i feel for you mate.... we all get attached to our pets and these fish we all lovingly care for are no different to our dogs and cats in my eyes, your did the right thing, all the best Steve.
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

  30. Thanks Ajm, Frimley Koi keeper, davethefish1, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  31. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    5,936
    Thanks / Likes
    13162
    Sorry to read this Dave.

    I think under the circumstances you are making the right choice to euthanize.

    Swim bladder complaints are common with fancy goldfish which I kept for years so I can relate to the situation. If the bladder is over-inflated (fish floating) you can remove air (syringe it out of the swim bladder) and it can help, but when the fish is sinking to the bottom things are much more complicated and ultimately euthanasia becomes the only realistic answer.

    Also consider sitting on the bottom like that in the wild and it would have become bait a long time ago.

  32. Thanks davethefish1, Ajm, Frimley Koi keeper, smartin Thanked / Liked this Post
  33. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,888
    Thanks / Likes
    3037
    Sorry to hear of this Dave.

    I've got a fish that is retaining eggs (or has a tumour) and will no doubt need to be euthanised at some point.

    I think what makes the decision harder is if it's a long term condition that a fish has been able to live with for some time. As obviously you don't want to put a fish down prematurely.

    I keep telling myself I'll do it when the fish starts to show signs of distress. But I wonder if it will be that obvious?

    Although in your case, it sounds like putting the fish down is unfortunately now the best thing that can be done.



    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  34. Thanks Ajm, davethefish1, Frimley Koi keeper, smartin Thanked / Liked this Post
  35. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi Dave,
    sorry to read this..... i feel for you mate.... we all get attached to our pets and these fish we all lovingly care for are no different to our dogs and cats in my eyes, your did the right thing, all the best Steve.
    thanks mate,
    never easy coming to these decisions...

  36. Thanks Ajm, Frimley Koi keeper, smartin Thanked / Liked this Post
  37. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Sorry to read this Dave.

    I think under the circumstances you are making the right choice to euthanize.

    Swim bladder complaints are common with fancy goldfish which I kept for years so I can relate to the situation. If the bladder is over-inflated (fish floating) you can remove air (syringe it out of the swim bladder) and it can help, but when the fish is sinking to the bottom things are much more complicated and ultimately euthanasia becomes the only realistic answer.

    Also consider sitting on the bottom like that in the wild and it would have become bait a long time ago.
    cheers RS,
    thats one of the frustrating things about the condition, there's not really a specific medication to use,
    like you get with most diseases once you've identified them.

  38. Thanks Ajm, Frimley Koi keeper, RS2OOO Thanked / Liked this Post
  39. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Bedworth
    Posts
    5,960
    Thanks / Likes
    11917
    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    Sorry to hear of this Dave.

    I've got a fish that is retaining eggs (or has a tumour) and will no doubt need to be euthanised at some point.

    I think what makes the decision harder is if it's a long term condition that a fish has been able to live with for some time. As obviously you don't want to put a fish down prematurely.

    I keep telling myself I'll do it when the fish starts to show signs of distress. But I wonder if it will be that obvious?

    Although in your case, it sounds like putting the fish down is unfortunately now the best thing that can be done.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    thanks TWNS,

    thats kind of the issue in a nut shell,
    he's not hovvering at the point of death, and is just being helped along the last step...
    it's how long with worsening health, and no feeding, you keep waiting before you decide that it's time.

  40. Thanks Ajm, Twhitenosugar, Frimley Koi keeper Thanked / Liked this Post
 

 

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:00 PM. Online Koi Mag Forum
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3
Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

vBulletin Improved By vBFoster® (Lite Version), © UltimateScheme, Ltd.