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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Red legions and sore looking fish

    Hi Iíve scraped and scoped 5/6 fish and for the life of me canít find any parasites, my water parameters are ok see pics, Iím 1200 gallons with varying sizes of koi. 8 7 inch and 5 from 12 to 15 inches. Running an drum and bio 75 litres k1. Gravity fed. The pictures say to me bacteria or viral but as Iím a novice at scoping Iíll need to confirm parasites with my local dealers.








    Iíve got some cytofex on stand by just in case. So 1= water parameters
    2= parasites
    3= Bacteria
    4= viral
    Iíve checked everything apart from 4. Any advice would be helpful
    Thanks in advance
    Stephen


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  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Sounds alot like my pond. Water parameters have been fine long term, scrape after scrape and no evidence of any parasites, temps stable, then the next minute a fish breaking out in lesions/ulcers and without urgent action death follows.

    After hitting it hard with CT and PP before going to work I thought I’d won the battle, only for my shiro to break out in strange red lesions to the scales 8 weeks later. Baytril injection and back to normal the next day. I’ve hit it again with PP, probably a little too hard this time, but hey ho.

    Looking at your set up I’d say you are overstocked with not enough filtration. You have a similar stocking level to mine and I have 1900 gallons, 150 litres of K1, a econbead 50 and I’m about to add a 3 tier shower. Each one of those filters would in theory support the stocking level ( for example the bead is rated to 4000 gallons alone) but I’m going x3 as the fish are inevitably growing.

    The more you look at smaller ponds only those with massive filtration run without problems, those that haven’t will always have problems.
    9000 ltr, FG, BD, Nexus 220, Draco drop in, Remora i9 ASHP, Econbead 50, Roto Innovations shower

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    Sounds alot like my pond. Water parameters have been fine long term, scrape after scrape and no evidence of any parasites, temps stable, then the next minute a fish breaking out in lesions/ulcers and without urgent action death follows.

    After hitting it hard with CT and PP before going to work I thought Iíd won the battle, only for my shiro to break out in strange red lesions to the scales 8 weeks later. Baytril injection and back to normal the next day. Iíve hit it again with PP, probably a little too hard this time, but hey ho.

    Looking at your set up Iíd say you are overstocked with not enough filtration. You have a similar stocking level to mine and I have 1900 gallons, 150 litres of K1, a econbead 50 and Iím about to add a 3 tier shower. Each one of those filters would in theory support the stocking level ( for example the bead is rated to 4000 gallons alone) but Iím going x3 as the fish are inevitably growing.

    The more you look at smaller ponds only those with massive filtration run without problems, those that havenít will always have problems.
    Thanks Bob, Iíve got a shower as well. But as you say Iím probably overstocked Iíll probably move a few on to my father in laws and increase my bio to 106 litres of k1. Iím taking a trip to my dealers later in the week and Iíll take a fish with me so they can definitively say itís one or the other.
    Have you been feeding when treating your pond ? Ill scale my pond down to 6 to 8 fish from next week. Thanks for reply


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  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Spongebob's Avatar
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    I’ve stopped feeding for now as I have some (hopefully) temporary nitrite. The pp is of course harsh and last time it had no effect on my filters, meaning I’d likely underdosed, this time I went a bit the other way (to four and a half hrs, with 4 half dose top ups) but confident now at least the bad bacteria is gone (at least for now) and the harder to kill good stuff will recover in time.

    Regarding the bad bacteria, ideally of course it should be analysed for the correct treatment, however, treatment with baytril has an immediate and dramatic effect, so whatever it is, it responds to the baytril combined with water treatment.

    Ive never really found a underlying reason for my issues, that’s the annoying thing. Re small ponds I was watching this this morning, a lot of fish for 1200 gallons!

    https://youtu.be/ApGRTeigU7g
    9000 ltr, FG, BD, Nexus 220, Draco drop in, Remora i9 ASHP, Econbead 50, Roto Innovations shower

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  7. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Just watched that video. My fish are no where near that size wow, Gary must have been well over filtered for That amount of large fish. Iíll update end of week when I get to dealers.


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  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Wow that's a lot of inch per gal

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    Johnathan

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  11. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    Wow that's a lot of inch per gal

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    Shows it can be done. My plan for the future Gives hope of adding yet more fish
    9000 ltr, FG, BD, Nexus 220, Draco drop in, Remora i9 ASHP, Econbead 50, Roto Innovations shower

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  13. #8
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    It’s worth testing for chlorine if you haven’t already done that. Are you using a dechlorinator unit or adding a dechlorinator when you top up?

    In the absence of a water quality issue or parasites (which are the most common causes), redness could indicate a bacterial issue.
    It would be worth doing a good nook and cranny clean of your filters to check for anything festering that could be the source of the problem. If you’ve ruled out parasites for sure and also rules out a chlorine issue, then you may need consider a Chloramine T or acriflavine treatment, so long as your pond water is warm enough for it. You really need 15-16C minimum temp for those antibacterial treatments. Salt can also help if you are prepared to salt the pond, or have a QT they could go in for treatment.

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  15. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    Itís worth testing for chlorine if you havenít already done that. Are you using a dechlorinator unit or adding a dechlorinator when you top up?

    In the absence of a water quality issue or parasites (which are the most common causes), redness could indicate a bacterial issue.
    It would be worth doing a good nook and cranny clean of your filters to check for anything festering that could be the source of the problem. If youíve ruled out parasites for sure and also rules out a chlorine issue, then you may need consider a Chloramine T or acriflavine treatment, so long as your pond water is warm enough for it. You really need 15-16C minimum temp for those antibacterial treatments. Salt can also help if you are prepared to salt the pond, or have a QT they could go in for treatment.
    Thanks Feeline, my doitsu sanke is listing on the bottom, they have all come up for food this morning, as you say I canít treat at the moment because The pond is 10Ē degrees tops. Iíll have to wait till next week. Iím not heated yet. Will anything work at 10-12 degrees?? I added cytofex last Thursday and they still have not recovered fully although a few have sailed through it. I may have to bag one up and take to my local dealers for a scrape. I know Costia are difficult to find and Iím a novice at the scope. Iíll try anything to be honest but only after a new scrape. Iíve got loads of air going in the pond as well. I have PP to hand and alparex plus cytofex. Iím not pouring any more stuff in the pond until I know whatís going on. Read something on here about if your fish are on there side itís probably Costia.
    Thanks for reading and responding


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  16. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Checked chlorine with dp4 tablets and have a big EA ACTIVE carbon filter tube for trickle in. I do add a small amount of home made de chlorinater every week or so and check the pond for chlorine.itís zero


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  17. #11
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Good you’ve checked for chlorine and ruled that out.
    I don’t know how effective the Cytofex is for bacterial issues as I’ve not had first hand experience of using it, and the natural ingredients it contains don’t have proper data sheets to go on. I can tell you that I’ve never found tea tree oil very good at getting rid of head lice on children though despite the claims on the bottles!
    At your current low temperature your options are limited.
    I would personally consider salt at 0.3% to see if this improves matters. There is no temperature limit for the use of salt and it aids healing and stress in fish, no matter what disease they have. If you can get some more scrapes done first then go ahead with that- it’s actually pretty easy to miss parasites like costia when you’re new to scraping.

    Lying on their sides is not diagnostic of any one disease. Sadly there are no easy shortcuts to getting a diagnosis. Koi have a very limited repertoire of signs to show they are unwell, and those signs can all happen from more than one different cause. Scrapes are your only way of telling one parasite from another.

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  19. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    Good youíve checked for chlorine and ruled that out.
    I donít know how effective the Cytofex is for bacterial issues as Iíve not had first hand experience of using it, and the natural ingredients it contains donít have proper data sheets to go on. I can tell you that Iíve never found tea tree oil very good at getting rid of head lice on children though despite the claims on the bottles!
    At your current low temperature your options are limited.
    I would personally consider salt at 0.3% to see if this improves matters. There is no temperature limit for the use of salt and it aids healing and stress in fish, no matter what disease they have. If you can get some more scrapes done first then go ahead with that- itís actually pretty easy to miss parasites like costia when youíre new to scraping.

    Lying on their sides is not diagnostic of any one disease. Sadly there are no easy shortcuts to getting a diagnosis. Koi have a very limited repertoire of signs to show they are unwell, and those signs can all happen from more than one different cause. Scrapes are your only way of telling one parasite from another.
    Once again thanks Feline, cytofex is
    Probably snake oil lol. Iíll have to get a salt meter and a bag of salt by the sounds of it. Iím after a small Ashp to heat over winter and to keep temps up for occasions like this. Any suggestions for a budget or mid range salt meter ? And Iíll have a look at the treatments mentioned in your earlier post. Thanks again


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  20. #13
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    My salt meter is a pretty cheap eBay one- it’s actually very easy to test the accuracy of one if you have some accurate little scales (jewellers scales, also a cheap eBay purchase). I make up a known salinity solution by weighing out a small amount of salt in measured distilled water. My cheap £30 meter is amazingly accurate!

    An ASHP is definitely a good investment. I got mine as much so I could heat in a medical emergency as any other reason.

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  22. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    My salt meter is a pretty cheap eBay one- itís actually very easy to test the accuracy of one if you have some accurate little scales (jewellers scales, also a cheap eBay purchase). I make up a known salinity solution by weighing out a small amount of salt in measured distilled water. My cheap £30 meter is amazingly accurate!

    An ASHP is definitely a good investment. I got mine as much so I could heat in a medical emergency as any other reason.
    May have found the problem with my pond !! As I have stones cemented on top of my pond wall the cement has leaked into my pond thus raising my PH to 8.5. Iíve tested my tap water for ph and itís near perfect see pics. Colin from manor koi scraped my fish and found zero parasites Red legions and sore looking fish which is great. So Iím doing 25% water change at moment and check the results later Iíve also lowered my pond and inch and a half away from then cement bed but this may me a false flag because of rain. Iíll update later.
    Thanks everyone
    Stephen


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  23. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    The one on the right is my tap water the other is straight out of the pond !!!!!!


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  24. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    My PH high range is 8.2 which is acceptable? Reading post about acceptable ph readings ??


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  25. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Range of 7 to 8.4 I think it is mate so should be fine

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    Johnathan

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  27. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Spoke with dealer and he says it may be the weather as Iím not heated. Cold nights and days we need some heat and sharpish


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  28. #19
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    You need to let the tap water sample stand in an open container overnight before testing pH. When it first comes out of the tap it’s been underground and has a high dissolved CO2 level which makes it artificially acidic. You need to let that gas off and then compare it to the pond. Your pond will tend to have a slightly higher pH than tap usually as algae do some photosynthesis in daylight pushing pH up a little naturally.

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  30. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    You need to let the tap water sample stand in an open container overnight before testing pH. When it first comes out of the tap itís been underground and has a high dissolved CO2 level which makes it artificially acidic. You need to let that gas off and then compare it to the pond. Your pond will tend to have a slightly higher pH than tap usually as algae do some photosynthesis in daylight pushing pH up a little naturally.
    Never Done that! I'll get my tested tonight.

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    Johnathan

 

 
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