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  1. #1
    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Help & Advice NEEDED 🥴

    I’m kind of lost at the moment as to which way to go folks
    Iv had my pond for approx 2years but have encountered lots of nightmares along the way ( fish losses 😩😩💰&#128176
    Pond is 1974 gallons (B/Drain G/fed)
    Nexus 220 with a drop in
    Ultra sieve iii from skimmer to bakki shower
    Big blue dechlorinator (trickle)
    Thermotec 9kw heater
    I really don’t even know we’re to begin with this post if I’m honest lol
    My main problem seams to be fish losses
    I’d like to think I’m on par with things
    Eg water testing
    Water changes
    Confident with taking scrapes and always looking out for behaviour of the koi
    However I feel that everything seems to be going against me

    Soft water Area
    KH virtually 0
    Buffer with bi carb
    Ph readings are usually at 7.2 - 7.8 on the Hanna pending time of day
    Ammonia usually 0 but yesterday’s test was 0.025
    Nitrite is at 7 ppb
    Pond is covered/enclosed at the moment

    Any advice or pointers would be MUCH APPRECIATED
    Iv come close so many times as to just JACKING it all in but I just want to enjoy this hobby

    Mike



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  3. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    How are you lined. Paint, fiberglass, liner . How Have you fixed coping stones?

    Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

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  5. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Mike, I feel your pain, and I could have written your post! Your set up is virtually identical to mine, gallonage wise, equipment wise and even down to the soft water. The only thing I recently added was a bead. Posts like yours always generate alot of questions!

    What is your current stocking level? Is bakki run 365?
    What temp are you at? How is the pond aerated?
    Are your Nitrite and Ammonia levels normally zero?
    Also with your fish losses what happened? parasites, bacterial (ulcers/fin rot etc) unsure?

    James
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Wain's Avatar
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    Biggest worry I see is KH virtually zero this needs to be up at 6-8 drops

    I see you use bicarb but how often ?

    Use bicarb or KH Up to raise that level and hopefully your problems will lessen for water quality
    dont want to teach you to suck eggs . . .go read Manky sanke QUESTIONS ANSWERED there is a good piece in there about
    what KH does in a pond ie buffers ph and will drop in time due to chemical reactions and particularly rain and snow being acidic getting into the pond water

    Post photos and as much info as you can we have some clever people on here (NOTE that FELINE . . people . . .totally inclusive )

    Hopefully we can get your zest back

    stay safe

    Wain
    1000 gal
    2 x Hozelock 6000ltr 9W UV
    Allpond Spin Filter 8000 11W UV
    Blagdon pond oxy 640 ltr/hr

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  9. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wain View Post
    Biggest worry I see is KH virtually zero this needs to be up at 6-8 drops

    I see you use bicarb but how often ?

    Use bicarb or KH Up to raise that level and hopefully your problems will lessen for water quality
    dont want to teach you to suck eggs . . .go read Manky sanke QUESTIONS ANSWERED there is a good piece in there about
    what KH does in a pond ie buffers ph and will drop in time due to chemical reactions and particularly rain and snow being acidic getting into the pond water

    Post photos and as much info as you can we have some clever people on here (NOTE that FELINE . . people . . .totally inclusive )

    Hopefully we can get your zest back

    stay safe

    Wain
    I was presuming the '0' quoted is just his KH from the tap, and he already buffers to 6/8, mine is the same. Plus pools covered so presumably the rain snow wont be having any effect.
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

  10. #6
    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    How are you lined. Paint, fiberglass, liner . How Have you fixed coping stones?

    Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk
    Box weld liner coping are tile there’s no run off getting in as 30” above

  11. #7
    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Yes sorry should have mentioned KH out of tap I buffer to around the 3-4 mark with bicarb

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    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    Mike, I feel your pain, and I could have written your post! Your set up is virtually identical to mine, gallonage wise, equipment wise and even down to the soft water. The only thing I recently added was a bead. Posts like yours always generate alot of questions!

    What is your current stocking level? Is bakki run 365?
    What temp are you at? How is the pond aerated?
    Are your Nitrite and Ammonia levels normally zero?
    Also with your fish losses what happened? parasites, bacterial (ulcers/fin rot etc) unsure?

    James
    Stock is 11 between 6-10 inch Ammonia has been at zero for past 6 months rise maybe due to the treatment (fluke P) I’m thinking,,nitrite was no greater than 13ppb but it’s at its lowest Iv seen now 7 might be due to the exchange of media in shower ??? Which is run 24/7 I took the Sakura out as it was breaking down and small shards ending up in pond Iv replaced with the black K1 + which is in onion sacks for easy removal maintenance ect
    Only thing I can think of with the loss side of things is due to parasites damage ect but there was 1 or 2 that just seemed to have fin rot pop up on there dorsal fin out of the blue ??? Whether it’s me that’s not catching the parasites early enough then I’m bit stuck/confused ect

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    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    I was presuming the '0' quoted is just his KH from the tap, and he already buffers to 6/8, mine is the same. Plus pools covered so presumably the rain snow wont be having any effect.
    I’ve completed Syd’s water quality course 201 which I must say is well worth the £12 👍🏻😀

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    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzMike View Post
    Stock is 11 between 6-10 inch Ammonia has been at zero for past 6 months rise maybe due to the treatment (fluke P) I’m thinking,,nitrite was no greater than 13ppb but it’s at its lowest Iv seen now 7 might be due to the exchange of media in shower ??? Which is run 24/7 I took the Sakura out as it was breaking down and small shards ending up in pond Iv replaced with the black K1 + which is in onion sacks for easy removal maintenance ect
    Only thing I can think of with the loss side of things is due to parasites damage ect but there was 1 or 2 that just seemed to have fin rot pop up on there dorsal fin out of the blue ??? Whether it’s me that’s not catching the parasites early enough then I’m bit stuck/confused ect
    So how many have you lost and is it ongoing?
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

  16. #11
    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    So how many have you lost and is it ongoing?
    Over the past x2 years I’d say a dozen they weren’t all in there same time (replacements) I did find I was having chlorine issues due to EA 30” unit not performing as good as it was advertised only lasted 18500 ltrs at a trickle of 0.15 ltrs per min so there’s a big blue on the system now
    I’m not loosing koi on a weekly kind of thing as Iv gone for months with everything ok So Dnt want to paint a picture that I’m just throwing koi in and forgetting about them I’m always at the pond side filter shed ect cat least half dozen times a day
    my thoughts are that maybe I’m not carrying out scrapes often enough

    Mike

  17. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Hey dude. What is ppb? I've never encountered that measurement before. Which Hanna device do you have? (just curious, not suggesting there is one to avoid)

    Do you check the output of your dechlorinator? I've never tested a big blue and I understand they are at the top end of the market. However the 3 different carbon filters I have tested, none of them have removed all chlorine, even at significantly less than the recommended flow rate.

    I know Syd Mitchell's site is excellent and I have spent many hours absorbing (or is it adsorbing Syd ;-)) the information presented on there. However, another site I reccommend is Hannover Koi Farm. There is plenty of valuable info on there too. The writer is slightly more blunt than Syd. He introduces the water test section by saying something like 'You don't test your water? That' s OK because I have plenty more fish to sell you when you have killed all of yours'

    https://hanoverkoifarms.com/the-science-of-water/

    Lots of good info all over that site but here is an extract about pH/KH. Everything in italics is copied from their site. If you have finished reading everything on Syd's site then do check out their site.



    Let’s talk now in detail about what things have an impact on the stability of the water’s pH. Many things, which get introduced into our ponds either naturally or by us, will eventually break down into either acid or alkaline ions and alter the pond’s pH. Also, certain chemical and biological processes that occur naturally in the pond can add acids or cause a change in the pH.

    Carbon dioxide from the air, for example, will get into the pond and create carbonic acid, and lower the pH of the pond by adding acids. Also, when fish breathe through their gills, or when any life form in the pond respires, they create carbon dioxide gas. When this gas comes into contact with water it to turns into carbonic acid. Note the word “acid”….so, when this acid is created in the water it will lower the pH. On the other hand, plant life uses up carbon dioxide during the day through the process of photosynthesis and will therefore allow the pH to rise. At night, the reverse occurs. Algae blooms (green water), string algae, carpet algae, and any other form of algae will also raise the pH, because as a plant, the algae also removes carbon dioxide/carbonic acid, and therefore raises the pH. As you can see, plant life plays a major role in changing the pH of the pond. Does this mean plants are bad? By no means. We will get to that shortly.

    The “Nitrogen Cycle” in
    your filter will also affect your pH. During this process, the nitrifying bacteria will release nitric and amino acids as a byproduct of their conversion of ammonia and nitrite, thereby lowering your pH. As you can see, the more activity in your biofilters, the more likely the pH is to swing widely and possibly even “crash” below seven. If this happens, all the fish will most likely die. This is called a pH crash.

    Feed protein rates also affect the biofilter activity and the higher the protein, the harder the nitrification process must work. The harder they work the more acids are produced and expelled into the system. The same holds true for periods of lots of plant growth, or an extreme number of water plants in the pond, or algae blooms. The more plant life there is (including any form of algae) the more likely it is that the pH will swing. This is why the pH from one pond to another can be so varied.

    The other dangers brought about by all of these acids being produced, is a pH “crash”, as discussed previously. Let’s say your pH runs at or near neutral. Now, think about all of those acids being injected into the pond as discussed above. With the pH being near neutral, you could be in danger of these acid excretions quickly dropping the pH below 7. This is a pH crash, and will kill your fish. This is where we come to the buffering capacity of your water, and its’ kH level.

    kH (carbonate hardness or total alkalinity)

    As you can see, there are many things that can cause your pH to fluctuate, and most of them will cause the pH to drop. For this reason, it is vital to constantly monitor the pond’s pH when you are not maintaining proper kH. Now. Now, you might be wondering what you can do about all of this if you do see diurnal fluctuations in your pH of more than .3 (three tenths).

    That brings us to kH, also known as alkalinity, total alkalinity, and/or temporary hardness. Call it what you want, but in ponding circles it is usually referred to simply as kH, and is, in my opinion, the most important parameter to monitor in an outdoor pond.* kH is the buffering capacity of your water, and is usually measured in dKH (degrees of hardness) or PPM (parts per million). As acids are introduced by the varying methods described above, it is the kH (carbonates) which instantly neutralize them and keep them from making your water more acidic and causing pH changes or crashes.*Without the proper kH levels to counteract these pH secretions, your pond is a ticking time bomb, and all of your fish are at risk.

    These kH is used up each time these acids are neutralized, and it is for this reason that we must monitor*and thus adjust its level as needed. We do this by adding carbonates to the pond, and baking soda is what is primarily used to achieve this.*We will discuss kH adjustment later in this article. To help you better understand I offer a simple example.

    Think of it like this: Pretend the kH level of your pond is a “Tums” antacid sitting there. When acids are excreted (by whatever) into the sytem, the “Tums”/kH instantly neutralize them. Over time, the kH can get used up each time it does this, just as a “Tums” might. If you eat something spicy, and it gives you indigestion, you might take an antacid to get rid of the excess acid in your stomach. If you eat something else spicy after that you will may likely have to take more antacid because the first dose of antacid got used in absorbing the initial acid content up. This is exactly how the kH buffers your water, and you have to understand that there is a minimum level needed to accomplish this. Too small or not enough “Tums” and you will still have indigestion. As stated, the kH will get used up over time and need to be replenished. Therefore, the kH has to be monitored on a regular basis, and you will have to most likely replenish it at various times throughout the year



    Just like how a tums dissolves and gets used up as it neutralizes acids in your stomach, your pond's kH gets used up as it neutralizes bacids/bases in your pond. It will keep your pH stable, but only until it's used up!


    Acceptable kH levels for our ponds would be between 100 and 200 PPM depending on many factors as discussed above. If you have lots of pond plants, algae growth, green water, heavy fish loads, and high feed rates, to name a few,*then you should try to maintain the higher end numbers between 150 PPM to 200 PPM. In the average pond maintaining a kH of 150 ppm is usually more than sufficient.* With this level of carbonate hardness, you should not see very much change in the daily pH values, and you will be protected from the dreaded “pH crash”! It is possible, however, that in times of extreme plant growth in your pond (algae blooms as well) that the pH can fluctuate more than the three tenths, but as long as you maintain the proper kH levels, the fish will be fine.

    Remember that your goal is to keep your kH from 100 to 200 ppm at all times. It can be very dangerous to let your kH get below 100 ppm as this is the minimal level for it to be able to do its job keeping the pH stable. I would suggest you monitor the kH weekly and never let it go below 100ppm.

    In monitoring the kH levels in systems here at the farm, we usually will let the kH go down to no lower than 100 ppm. At this point we add baking soda in daily increments of 20 ppm per day to gradually get it back up to 150 ppm. This is the high value I personally like to maintain. So, it will usually take a few days to get back to the desired 150 ppm desired range




    Raising kH

    If you test your kH and it falls below the minimum 100 PPM, then you need to raise it gradually. This is done by simply adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). But, remember the importance of keeping the fish’s environment stable? Well, it is for this reason that*you should never raise your kH more than 20 PPM per 24-hour period. For example, if your kH was 40 PPM, you will have to add the baking soda twice over a 48-hour period, with each addition being 24 hours apart, to get it to the minimum 100 PPM.

    NOTE:*You should recheck your kH reading 24 hours after each addition of baking soda to make sure it is not increasing more than desired due to some sort of miscalculation on your part, such as pond gallonage or baking soda measurement, etc. Also, you must be aware that baking soda has a consistent pH of 8.4, and will raise the pH of your pond 8.4 if it is below that. Also, be sure to check the ammonia levels in your pond before the addition of baking soda. Ammonia becomes much more toxic as the pH rises above the neutral reading of 7, so*if you have any ammonia in your pond I would not recommend the addition of the baking soda until you get the ammonia to 0 ppm.

    The general rule of thumb for increasing your kH is by 20 PPM increments every 24 hours, by adding ½ cup of baking soda per every 1,000 gallons of pond water. For smaller volumes you would add about 1/4 TEASPOON for every 10 gallons of water to raise the kH 20 PPM. Remember, however, to recheck your kH and pH 24 hours after each addition. It is also wise to keep an eye on your fish for any adverse reactions during this period, but if you have calculated correctly, there should be none. You would have to be off tenfold to really see a negative reaction from the fish




    Cont....

  18. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Continued from previous post....

    A Note on Raising the kH

    Remember the relationship between ammonia toxicity and the pH value back in the nitrogen cycle part of this article? Ammonia becomes more toxic the higher the pH and water temp rise. Well, understand that when you use baking soda to adjust your kH it may raise your pH level. You see baking soda itself has a ph of 8.4 (8 point 4) which is fine in itself and within the acceptable range for Koi. So when you add the amount of baking needed to raise your kH to the desired level, it will most likely raise the pH to the pH of the baking soda which is 8.4.

    Each pond or system is different as to its natural pH level. There are tons of variables that affect where your system pH naturally falls. Just know it is critical for Koi that the pH always be above 7. Below this point and you are in grave danger of a pH crash as discussed previously. So in understanding this, also understand that adjusting the kH using baking soda will take the pH to 8.4 if your ponds natural level is below this. Basically,you can potentially raise you pH when raising your kH.

    This is where the ammonia comes in. If you have any degree of ammonia in your pond you do not want to raise your kH at this time. You must first add an ammonia binder to convert the ammonia to a non-toxic form. Only then can you proceed in raising the kH. Otherwise by raising the kH you could be potentially raising the pH and thus making any ammonia in the system more toxic instantly. This is also one reason we only raise the kH in 20 ppm increments per day. Also, because raising the kH can possibly raise the pH we don’t want to do that part too quickly either. Remember, quickly changing the pH can harm the fish.

    So to sum up, keep your kH between 100 and 200ppm using baking soda. Add only enough baking soda to raise the kH 20 ppm per day. Do not raise the kH when there is ammonia in the water until you first add an ammonia binder to make the ammonia nontoxic.


    Source - Hannover Koi Farm website

    https://hanoverkoifarms.com/the-science-of-water/

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  20. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    I don't know if any of that I relevant or not.

    One thing I would certainly do though if you lose another fish, is arrange to have it sent to Paula Reynolds at Lincs Fish Health. Paula will be able to establish the cause of death and help prevent further losses. It might be worth contacting her anyway. Syd Mitchell will vouch for Paula's credentials. She has helped me save fish in the past.

    Home

  21. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    ^ Where that says "home" (above) is actually a link to Lincs Fish Health website.

  22. #16
    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Asagi View Post
    ^ Where that says "home" (above) is actually a link to Lincs Fish Health website.
    thanks for that Andre
    I have taken syd Mitchell’s water quality course last year took me x6 weeks to complete tho 😅😁 so I like think I’m kind of clued up on a few things how my system works and Iv always got the 92 page print out to refer to 😅🤣 I’m not the one to sort of dive in at things prefer to research
    but obviously there’s something not right somewhere ppb parts per billion hand held Hanna checkers (nitrite is in ppb)

    mike

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Gazkoi's Avatar
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    Hi Mike - where are you located mate?

    Cheers

    Gaz
    Hobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.

    Always happy to help!!

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  25. #18
    Junior Member Rank = Fry ZzMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazkoi View Post
    Hi Mike - where are you located mate?

    Cheers

    Gaz
    N.wales Gaz just b4 you cross over to Anglesey

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    Maybe send some water off to be tested thoroughly and get some pro in to help with scrapes.
    At least then you know if your water is ok and you are parasite free.
    Any crap in the bottom of your Nexus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by koicarpus View Post
    Maybe send some water off to be tested thoroughly and get some pro in to help with scrapes.
    At least then you know if your water is ok and you are parasite free.
    Any crap in the bottom of your Nexus?
    thanks for your reply i think youv hit the nail on the head regarding the bottom of the nexus today {sunday} i scooped out all the 150 lts of k1 while the outer chamber was full of water closing the bottom drain and return valve allowing the k1 to float as i also had 14lts of Bio chip in there since last year which at first was floating with the k1 however its been niggling at the back of my mind as to what its been doing of late as iv not seen it and low and behold there it was sat at the bottom of the nexus FULL of crap and what ever other nasties it had in there
    dumped the water after k1 removed and then vac'd out the bio chips which are in the bin lol nexus has had a dam good clean kiss points flushed ect just carried out a full water test 5 hrs later Ammonia is 0.18 ppm was at 0.35 other day nitrite is at 8 ppb and chlorine is at 11 on the total chlorine ULR hanna tester S/T added

    PH 7.8 {hanna again} KH 3.5 {soft water area}

    i hope the root of my problems & issues is/was the bio chips holding onto crap BAD bacteria ect i certainly will not be using them again lol iv learnt a frustrating lesson not to mention the expense

    just hope there are better days ahead to enjoy the hobby more instead of thinking of filling it in lol

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