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  1. #1
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Mouth Abnormality

    OK. Hands up. It's a fair cop guv. I'll come quietly. You got me banged to rights etc

    It's an orfe.

    Not a koi.

    But... Depending on what this turns out to be, it may yet have impact the health of the koi, so please, no koi snobbery. There isn't an Extreme Orfe forum.

    Sorry. Waffling a bit as I am waiting for the video to upload to YouTube.

    I am unable to upload an image for reasons beyond my understanding. I will attempt to do so after.

    I have a golden orfe which has something odd in or around its mouth.

    It looks like a white barbel but orfe don't have barbels.

    Fungus? Tumour? Or possibly an injury to its mouth? Its difficult to get a decent look at it.


    Has anyone seen this or similar before?


    I fear I may have to sedate this fish at some point.


    It's a 45-50cm orfe and it's not going to take kindly to me trying to have a proper look.

    So it's not going to be easy to handle.

    Am I better off using clove oil to sedate the orfe? Or would 2-Phenoxyethanol be the better option here?

    Here is the video link. It's 1 minute long but if you are in a rush, just watch the last 20 secs for the clearest picture.



    https://youtu.be/5R5XBaqE3fY


    Thanks for looking people. I appreciate your time.



  2. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Still unable to post a photo.... until now....

    Screenshot_20210228_152359_com.simplemobiletools.gallery.pro.jpg

  3. #3
    Member Rank = Nisai twokoi's Avatar
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    It's difficult to see on the video and photo but i think you're going to need to have a closer look, it could be some sort of injury. I have sandstone rock edging my pond and a few years ago one of the koi injured itself while looking for pellets which had got under the rock. The injury was on the upper part of the mouth but looked something like your Orfe's does. I just cleaned the area with Anti Bac and the fish is still with us and fine now. Sorry i have no knowledge of Orfe and their reaction to anesthetic.

  4. #4
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    It’s not clear exactly what part of the mouth or jaw that is coming from- I’m afraid you’re going to need to look from below and get a closer up image.
    I would use the phenoxy not clove oil as it’s a more predictable effect. Put an air stone in the bowl though as orfe have a high oxygen requirement. I’ve never sedated one- but I suspect it’s more dodgy than doing a koi tbh.

  5. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    I have to be honest, orfe terrify me. I gave all mine away apart from this one which I couldn't catch in time. I think once whatever this is, is sorted, I'll see if they'll take this one too.

  6. #6
    Back when I had orfe, they would launch themselves out of the pond when the net went in the water

    Never again, it's koi only for me these days.

  7. #7
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    *sigh* 2 issues here. Please tell me if I'm overthinking. I have a tendency to focus on details as I have autism.


    1) This is the second unheated winter*. The pond is 10 degrees. Needs to be 15 to use 2-Phenoxyethanol.

    Kusuri suggested taking the temp up to 15 using an aquarium heater in the bowl. I didn't mention it was an orfe. Surely that's too steep an increase for any fish. I don't even think they go up 5 degrees in a few mins when heat ramping do they? Not to mention cooling back down to pond temp after.

    * I have an ASHP and a 2kw Cloverleaf heater. Both are broken. So I just have 3 x 300w aquarium heaters on the go. Im not convinced they do a great deal but it stops me feeling totally awful.

    Can clove oil be used at any temperature? Or does that have a minimum temperature?


    2) I dunno how I'm going to catch it because I am worried that the white thing might be bone. If I use a net of any kind it might snag on it. I thought about taping a plastic bag over a pan net then making holes in it for flow. Would that work? I'm thinking it's less likely to snag if I do that. I don't think it's bone but it might be.




    I tried to be orfe free. Just the night I moved them, I had to get to the place before it was dark and I ran out of time and couldn't catch this one.

  8. #8
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Clove oil doesn’t work at low water temperatures either- it just can’t disperse in the water.
    heating up to 15C actually isn’t all that much of a problem- it’s the cooling down afterwards that is more likely to give you issues.

    I think you will have to net it to be honest- a plastic bag will have too much flow resistance through the water and orfe tend to be fast. I doubt you would be able to catch it otherwise.

    If it is a piece of lower jaw bone then there’s probably not much you are going to be able to do for the fish- so you would be needing to use the clove oil to euthanase it and the the temp rise won’t matter.

  9. #9
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Thanks Feline. I'm just orfe (see what I did there) outside to have a look now. I've been putting it off all day finding really interesting things to read, quickly checking here, checking Facebook, checking twitter, etc.

    I'm not going to sedate today as I am just going to get some photos and take it from there. In theory it's gonna be swift, gentle and efficient. Net, bring to side, hold, turn over, get phone, take several photos, then release. Nice and easy lemon squeezy

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  11. #10
    Member Rank = Nisai Gnmm's Avatar
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    It might be better for you and and the fish to scoop it into a clear bag with some water (like the ones you take your newly bought fish in) and have a look that way. It would be a lot less stressful than a fish flapping around. Unless I misunderstood you?

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  13. #11
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    You do not misunderstand me and thank you and yes, you are absolutely right. I did explore that option but
    this is quite a large fish and nowhere local had suitably sized bags. I only found 1 place online that did 48 inch bags and delivery was Monday at best.

    I wanted to use the pan net into bowl or pan net into sock into bowl or even examine in the sock but with the pan net having no depth, I feared he would attempt to dive and go head first into the rim.

    So I just used a large net similar to a landing net and kept at least some of the fish in the water while I examined him.

    I say examined. It didn't quite go like that. I managed to be reasonably confident that his jaw is not broken. It is a little bit red but I couldn't see any obvious injury.

    I have seen the orfe take food since then, which is a relief.

    Here is the video. There was a minute and a half of video. When I edited it down to the parts where his mouth is voidable, I had 8 seconds of footage. So I slowed everything down to an eighth speed and zoomed in a bit.

    See what you think....




    https://youtu.be/LR4gQzRyvZw

  14. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Lol voidable? Thanks auto correct. Obviously I meant visible.

    Is voidable even a word?

  15. #13
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I can’t really see it’s mouth very well on your video Justin

  16. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai dbs's Avatar
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    Me neither...

  17. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Hurrrrumph. Me neither but the orfe hadn't read the script re nice and easy. They aren't like koi who will struggle for a second or two then give up. Orfe don't give up. They just keep struggling and I was a bit worried about hurting it in that net.

    And if I am being completely honest, (don't tell the others) I was a bit taken aback by the size of its head and I thought it might bite me.

    I think I am just going to leave it be until water temperature gets a bit closer to 15 degrees. Which might be next year, considering this is the longest winter in human history. I think we are beginning another ice age.

    Either that or the "Night King" has broken through "the wall" and is currently marching south with his army of "wights". Arya Stark has sailed off "to the west" so we might be in a bit of trouble. Sorry. Game Of Thrones references.

    I'm a lot happier now that I've seen it eat. If anything changes, or if the weather does improve, I'll report back.

    Thanks to everybody for your time.

 

 

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