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  1. #1
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Koi laying over at bottom

    Hi all,

    I've been lurking for a while and conscious I really should write a newbie post introducing myself and my pond set up, sorry about being straight in with a question/problem!

    I have a very large in ground pond 60ft x 40ft and 5ft deep at its deepest part. Approx 275k litres running 4 BD's to 2 drum filters, one to moving bed with hex media and the other to a bakki shower which runs a waterfall (currently turned off to avoid further cooling the water)

    Pond parameters are:

    Temp - 7c
    PH 7.2
    KH 6dh
    Ammonia - 0 ppm
    Nitrite - 0 ppm
    Nitrate - 5 ppm

    I have a Sansai Sanke approx 50cm that is sat at the bottom with most of the other fish but is laying over on its side. It will right itself and occasionally swim around like it is fine...

    Not sure if it is relevant but I fed them last week when temp was around 8C and they were all fairly active at that point.

    This is my first winter with a pond and koi, I suspect the Sanke has never been through a winter so I don't know how it normally reacts. I have been doing a lot of reading and had seen some articles that say koi do sometimes lay over when the temps drop and then I have seen other articles that make me worry there could be something more serious wrong like swim bladder disease.

    I'd welcome any advice whether people think I should risk stressing the koi trying to catch it (not going to be easy in a huge pond) or whether I should leave it alone and see if it improves on its own.

    Thanks in advance,
    Adam



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  3. #2
    Hi Adam,
    With a pond like that we need pictures! Sounds amazing. I'm afraid I can't answer your question about your fish laying on its side as this is my first winter as well. It's a worrying time but I am trying not to mess about with the pond too much over the winter and let the fish do their thing. I'm sure somebody more experienced will answer your question more directly.

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  4. #3
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Thank you! Its still work in progress in the surrounding area but I will get some pictures up soon for sure!

    Far too big really but the pond came with the house and was clay lined with no proper filtration (and 3ft of sludge in the bottom of it that had accumulated over 25 years) so it has been my project to get it dug out, build a filter house and get a better filter set up and line the damn thing. If I was building from scratch I would've made it smaller

  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Koi laying over at bottom

    Hey and welcome along. Sounds like a epic pond/lake! koi laying on their sides is not normal in any sense.

    Koi will sit on the bottom of ponds with the fins clamped if they are sulking, if the bottom is not flat they may be tilted at times I have seen this in my sloped pond but completely rolled over on its side is a sign of severe stress.

    There are a number of things that could cause the stress. Sickness, water parameters, overcrowding, temperature, parasites Iím sure there are others.

    I had a similar issue last year and lost a few koi with no other explanation other than natural selection they were all young tosai and my inexperience.

    My suggestion would be if possible to get it out the pond and into a holding vat with some heat and salt.


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    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike, when I went out again it was back upright at the bottom with the others like normal but it seems to have varying degrees of tilt each time I check it. Most of the time at around 45 degree angle, but it does move and swim around sometimes still

    The article I read by Paula Reynolds said the following, which made me think maybe its just a chill and it may correct itself. It is so hard to know when to intervene at times, I think like you say it definitely isn't good seeing it tilted over like that and tomorrow I think I may be best to try to net it if I can

    "Koi that rest on the pond floor inclined on one side that occasionally swim when the water is at its warmest, usually the middle of the day, are chilled although coping. However, Koi that fail to swim at all and remain motionless all day on the pond floor are not coping with the cold, and such Koi can be at risk that the chill might trigger a more serious problem within the swim bladder."



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  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Mikeh83's Avatar
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    There is tilted and then on itís side rolled over. the photo below shows 3 koi laid over. Is yours like this?





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  11. #7
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Ahh no it is just tilted then not completely on its side, sorry I didnít explain it very well.

    It has been tilted at around 45degree angle, like this Picture I found on Google but on the floor not floating

    https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attac...1&d=1181391933


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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by webber498 View Post
    Thank you! Its still work in progress in the surrounding area but I will get some pictures up soon for sure!

    Far too big really but the pond came with the house and was clay lined with no proper filtration (and 3ft of sludge in the bottom of it that had accumulated over 25 years) so it has been my project to get it dug out, build a filter house and get a better filter set up and line the damn thing. If I was building from scratch I would've made it smaller
    I guess with a pond that big catching your fish for a closer inspection could be really difficult and I dread to think how much it would cost to add any treatments.
    On the plus side, I doubt overstocking will ever be an issue!

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    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Yes itís a bit of a nightmare for that, I have a small intex pool (5000L) that I have insulated with polycarb covers. Filtered with a heater. Itís my grow on for some Tosai and I was planning to get rid of it after the winter and put them in the main pond but I think Iím going to need a more permanent quarantine/ hospital set up.

    This is the main pond, picture doesnít really do the size justice. Like I say, 60ft across so itís far too big really... also excuse the waterfall end part, Iíve been redoing that whilst I have the waterfall off





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    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Iíve managed to video the Sanke with the problem to show what it is doing.

    Iíve noticed this morning it is alone and not with the other koi. It is in a shallower part of the pond, the rest are down in the deeper part

    The water parameters remain the same this morning, youíll see the water clarity isnít great at the moment, I originally put some water Lilly baskets in the pond but they got savaged by the fish and clouded the water so I since removed them. I have one drum running 50% flow at the moment to keep things turning over. Iím in the process of plumbing a waterfall bypass so I can run both drums over winter without cooling things down too much

    Here is the video

    https://youtu.be/Tu8o9HWYcQk


    Thanks for your help


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  18. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by webber498 View Post
    Yes itís a bit of a nightmare for that, I have a small intex pool (5000L) that I have insulated with polycarb covers. Filtered with a heater. Itís my grow on for some Tosai and I was planning to get rid of it after the winter and put them in the main pond but I think Iím going to need a more permanent quarantine/ hospital set up.

    This is the main pond, picture doesnít really do the size justice. Like I say, 60ft across so itís far too big really... also excuse the waterfall end part, Iíve been redoing that whilst I have the waterfall off





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    That is absolutely massive and what a great garden. It's going to look great next summer. Hopefully your fish will sort itself out. Looks like a swim bladder issue but I am not very experienced in keeping koi. Maybe you could invest in a small power station to heat your pond next year Koi laying over at bottom

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  20. #12
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Thank you, its a bit of a mess at the moment but work ongoing so it should be nice when its all finished I hope! About to start decking over the filter house as the next job

    Yes the reading I have done makes me also think it could be a swim bladder issue brought on by the cold. I am still in two minds whether to try to net it and further stress it or see if it improved on its own. Always a difficult decision especially when netting won't be easy and could be quite stressful for all the fish

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  22. #13
    Member Rank = Nisai Big nige's Avatar
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    That's massive garden and pond, very niceKoi laying over at bottom

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  24. #14
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Koi laying over at bottom

    Thanks Nige, itís hard work keeping on top of it all but Iím hoping next year it will be great! Itís a lockdown project that has taken me the last 8 months!! Iíve done most of the work myself with the help of some tradesmen friends whoíve done some of the groundwork and brickwork for the filter house.

    Iíve probably made loads of mistakes in the way Iíve set it up, I tried to just read as much as I could online and watch videos to learn.

    With the filters running 100% it puts 40k litres through an hour so it takes almost 7 hours to put the whole pond volume through it once. Iím working on the basis that it is massively understocked even with 30 fish so hoping that turnover is enough once the feed is at max levels. No signs of ammonia or nitrite issues yet (touch wood) but clarity isnít ever going to be like a more typical sized koi pond as I just canít get the turnover rates


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  25. #15
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    brief update -
    I decided to try to net the koi so I could salt bath it and gradually up the temp so it could go in my grow on to recover...but I failed miserably. I even got my dry suit on and got in the water with the net but no luck.

    Ive ended up ordering a cheap seine net from eBay so I will have to wait for that to come before I can catch it I think. Hopefully it survives in the mean time.

    From what i have been able to find online I do think this is likely to be a chill impacting the swim bladder and the fact the fish is able right itself and swim around like normal hopefully means its not too serious yet. What I don't know is whether left alone this would get worse and could kill the fish or whether it would be able to survive the whole winter like this.

    If anyone has experience of a similar thing happening to their fish it would be good to know how they got on in the end, the few posts I have found on various forums with similar don't have an outcome, some people left the fish but no idea if it survived or not...

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  27. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Adam looking good, reminds me of the stock pool at Capesthorne! . There’s some cold temps coming up, think I’d don the suit again. . My thinking would be it’s not just going to get better on its own in these temps, plus there could be some big temp swings coming if it turns mild again.
    9000 litre pond, block and fibreglass, BD, skimmer, Nexus 220 with Draco drum,

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  29. #17
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai webber498's Avatar
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    Thanks James, itís getting there slowly.

    I reckon I could spend all day in there and not catch it but probably freeze to death in the process Koi laying over at bottom Iím very jealous of yours sitting nicely at 20C!

    Hey when this seine net arrives I may give you a shout for an extra pair of hands if you donít mind! Ill watch some Japanese mud pond harvests to get the technique, what could possibly go wrong Koi laying over at bottom


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