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Thread: Motionless Koi
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30-09-2020, 12:51 PM #1
Motionless Koi
Worried Novice Alert!!
My Pond is fairly new. I have 2 Koi and 4 small goldfish.
My koi are 6 inches long.
All fish came from the same supplier and were purchased at the same time.
My pond is 500 gallons.
The Koi have been in for 4 weeks.
I test PH, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia once every week. All results are well within acceptable levels stated in instructions coming with the kit.
I have one koi yesterday that has been hiding away in corner almost motionless. All of my other fish seem fine and behaving normally.
My pump, UV and filtration all seem to be working fine.
I have noticed the temperature dropping quite a bit over the last week, but this fish is still far less active than the others.
I have read endless articles about potential issues and am seeking advice on what to do first.
Many thanks for any assistance, most welcome!!
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30-09-2020, 01:28 PM #2
Sorry to hear you're worried about your fish. Cold water and fluctuations in temp can make fish sit on the bottom. However, when they are lying clamped, that is an indicator that something more is wrong. Is your fish holding its pectoral fins tucked in close to its body when laying on the bottom?
What are the temps of your water from AM to PM?
Please could you post up your water param readings and tell us the kit you are using. Would be good to know pH AM and PM too as swings in that can be very stressful. KH will buffer against pH crashes so you need to know that reading too.
Is there any other behaviour you have observed such as constantly isolating, refusing food when others are eating, spitting food, dorsal fin twitching, flashing against surfaces or jumping above water?
Finally, can you bowl and check the fish for signs of redness or damage, (photograph and post anything you find), and do you have the facilities to scrape and scope yourself?
Answers to these will help members offer some advice
Sent from my SM-N910F using TapatalkLast edited by Koiz; 30-09-2020 at 01:59 PM.
11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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Stuart Harry, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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30-09-2020, 01:59 PM #3
Thanks for such a quick response...
The fins do appear to be clamped unfortunately.
I am not sure of the exact temp of the pond, but I have a pond thermometer arriving tomorrow (thanks Amazon!)
I am using a Kockney Koi fish pond testing kit £39.99 from my local aquatics centre. I don't have my results with me but from memory PH is 8.2 Ammonia 0.0 Nitrate 10.0 Nitrite 0.1. I have only tested once a week at pretty much same time of day (lunchtime). The results have been almost exactly the same for the past 5 weeks since I began testing.
With regards behaviour I only noticed the fish hiding away motionless yesterday. Its been fine the last 5 weeks. It was flashing when it was moving yesterday, but only a couple of times then went back to its hiding spot. I have not noticed any jumping or twitching fins.
I will bowl the fish and check for the symptoms you mention and post in a further update. From initial view the fish appears exactly the same.
I don't have facilities to scrape and scope. I am quickly realising the importance of this from all of the articles I have been reading. I purchase the kit I need straight away.
You must see this sort of vague request for help very often. I'm sure that I am much the same as the other novice koi keepers in not realising the complexity of the hobby!!. I am fully committed to the welfare of my fish and am very keen to give them the best care possible. I guess its a steep learning curve
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30-09-2020, 02:13 PM #4
It certainly is a very steep curve - one I've been up myself with help from this forum
Many folk don't realise what keeping koi involves upfront - I was one of them! Unfortunately a microscope is one piece of kit that is essential when it comes to diagnosing parasites, and unless you have someone close by that can do this for you, it's another bit of kit you will have to invest in.
I would highly recommend tracking all your params (mine all go into a spreadsheet!), so you can build a picture of how your pond is running. A stable pH is important so do check that at different times of the day as it can change. You need to know you KH and GH too.
The flashing could indicate parasites but also water issues. What are you using to dechlorinate your water?
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30-09-2020, 02:23 PM #5
Nitrite of 0.1 may be a bit of an irritant but I'm not aware of it causing clamping. Your set up is new so your filters are still maturing. Salt would buffer the fish against Nitrite damage but you don't want to go that route until you know for sure what parasite(s) you may be dealing with as some require Formalin and you must be careful using that in a salted pond, though generally the level of salt needed to buffer against Nitrite is very low. A Salt Metre is another bit of kit that becomes essential
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30-09-2020, 02:45 PM #6
A nitrite of 0.1 will not make any significant or noticeable difference to the fish.
Im thinking the sudden recent temperature drop could be a factor for this fish, particularly in such a small water volume.2016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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30-09-2020, 02:51 PM #7
Pond.jpg
This is the water treatment I am currently using Hozelock Cyprio Tap Water Conditioner. I am rapidly purchasing all of the other bits recommended here. I just really hope that I can get all this together in time to help the situation with the fish.
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30-09-2020, 02:56 PM #8
I will post my water temp once the thermometer arrives tomorrow.
Not sure if my water treatment method uploaded correctly so in answer to previous question from Koiz I am using Hozelock cyprio Tap Water Conditioner.
Thanks
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30-09-2020, 03:28 PM #92016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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Stuart Harry, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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30-09-2020, 06:45 PM #10
So I have just got home and checked on the fish. It was again hiding motionless in corner. It did venture out with the other fish when it saw me moving around. But it was flashing quite regularly and swimming very irratically. Darting about very quickly at all levels in the water. The other fish took a little food but I am assuming they are slowing down due to cooler conditions. The fish in question did not take food.
The koi has now gone back to its hiding place after about 5 mins of activity.
I have netted it and examined the fish and can see no signs of parasite, damage etc. It looks healthy (other than the behaviour listed).
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30-09-2020, 06:56 PM #11
That doesn't sound good I'm afraid. The flashing and darting indicates irritation consistent with parasites such as flukes or Trichodina. Really a scrape and scope is the next step I feel.
If you wish to buy your own scope, you won't go wrong with this:
https://www.apexmicroscopessecure.co...ctitioner.html
Also take a look at the Brunel Fish Diagnosis Kit:
Brunel Fish Disease Kit
Apex is a division of Brunel so give them a call as they may be able to do a deal for both bought together.
May be worth posting your location in case there is someone who may be able to assist you pond side from here.
Sent from my SM-N910F using TapatalkLast edited by Koiz; 30-09-2020 at 07:05 PM.
11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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30-09-2020, 07:08 PM #12
Ok thanks.
I am guessing time is of the essence here, so I will get the kit purchased immediately.
I will post an update as soon as I have done the scrape etc.
I am in Bristol BS15.
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30-09-2020, 07:14 PM #13
Do let us know if you need any guidance on scraping and scoping and I'll find you some links.
Well done on jumping straight onto this problem without hesitation. You're going to make a great fish parent
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30-09-2020, 07:24 PM #14
Just another thought ... if you buy from Brunel directly and budget allows, talk to them about a carry case and / USB camera for you scope also. Its good to protect your scope with a proper case and the camera makes photographing and videoing your scrapes so much easier so you can upload them to share for diagnosis.
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01-10-2020, 06:12 PM #15
UPDATE!!
I managed to purchase an Amazon Microscope which was delivered earlier today. I netted the fish, took some quick photos and did the scrape as shown in various you tube videos. I obtained a reasonable amount of mucus from behind the gills on the flank. I checked the slide on every available magnification and all I could see was mucus and small air bubbles (no parasites visible). I researched what I was looking for and didn't see anything suspicious at all.
I also had a pond thermometer delivered. The temperature is 14 degrees.
To me the fish looked healthy, but I attach the pics I took (fairly hastily).
I have just completed a 20% water change and the fish currently seems a little more active in swimming with the others, not flashing or darting and even took a very small amount of food.
It was sat on the bottom before I started this work.
I will do a round of water tests tomorrow once its settled after the water change.
Does any of the above info give any clues as to the problem??
Many thanks
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Koiz Thanked / Liked this Post
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01-10-2020, 06:27 PM #16
The main thing that strikes me from your photos is that your fish has sunken eyes. When you look at it from above, the eyes should be quite protruding. Sunken eyes are a definite sign of advanced poor health. This was one of the symptoms my baby Showa had when it was overcome by Costia, which are notoriously hard to find on a scrape.
Hopefully you'll have other input shortly for a second opinion.
PS. What scope did you get?
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Stuart Harry Thanked / Liked this Post
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01-10-2020, 06:54 PM #17
Thanks again for quick reply.
The scope was a cheap one £30 from Amazon (best I could do at such short notice). I will buy a better quality one as soon.
I did order some Potassium Pemmangenate and Hydrogen Peroxide, just to cover all angles as previous advice suggested parasite infestation.
I have researched the treatment process and it doesn't look that hard as long as you are prepared and get plenty of oxygen in during the treatment.
I will have another go at the scrape and scope, now I know what I could be looking for.
I am reluctant to do so, but at what point should I try the treatment. Is it worth doing anyway.
Thanks
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01-10-2020, 07:13 PM #18
Hi Mate
Where are you located?
Cheers
GazHobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.
Always happy to help!!
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Koiz Thanked / Liked this Post
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01-10-2020, 07:25 PM #19
Hi Gaz,
I am in Bristol BS15.
Cheers
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01-10-2020, 08:24 PM #20
I hate to say this but a £30 scope is unlikely to find anything. You need a scope with adjustable iris and condenser to be able to see through all the layers of the sample with optics of x10, x40 and if poss x60 too. Don't go for x100 as that requires the use of oil to prepare slides.
Please don't put PP in your pond unless you know what you are treating. It's a harsh treatment, esp on young and already poorly fish and is generally only a first line treatment for Trichodina.
Hopefully Gaz may come up with a plan for you as poolside assistance is probably wise.
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pug has a very impressive veg filter on his pond, have a look at some of his his youtube videos....