Welcome to Koi Forum. Is this your first visit? Register
Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Gill Tumor

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501

    Gill Tumor

    Hi

    I purchased this fish in Spring and it seemed perfectly healthy.

    However over the last few months I noticed that it's right gill plate was remaining slightly ajar i.e. it was unable to close it.

    I kept an eye on the fish but as it seemed healthy and was doing everything a healthy koi should, I thought I'd just keep an eye on things.

    However over the last few weeks I noticed that it looked whitish inside the top of the gill as it swam past the window, yet was still acting completely normally and feeding well. It wasn't flashing, gasping for breath, hanging, bottom sitting or doing anything that Koi normally do when something is not right.

    Anyway, I netted it, sedated it and performed a scrape for good measure.

    I found some Trich on the fish which I'll be treating the pond for, once I've given the fitlters a good clean out... just in case there is any mulm build up.

    But was wondering if anyone has seen anything like this before?

    I've asked on the Extreme Koi Grow and Show WhatsApp group but no one on there had seen anything like it before.

    I warn you now, its best not to look at if eating, as its pretty gross!


    Attached Images Attached Images
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  2. #2
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    5,392
    Thanks / Likes
    3337
    If you want to know for sure what it is then you need to biopsy it and send some samples away. Sometimes surgery is an option if it’s confirmed to be a tumour, but the gills are highly vascular so would be a bit risky.

    If the fish is unbothered then you could just leave it and monitor.

  3. Thanks Twhitenosugar, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    I emailed Paula Reynolds and she said that whilst tumours can be operated on, in this case it's probably gone too far and there's a chance of it spreading, even if it's removed.

    So looks like I'll keep an eye on her and euthanize if she is showing signs of suffering.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  5. Thanks Feline, freddyboy, Koiz Thanked / Liked this Post
  6. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    10,677
    Thanks / Likes
    16184
    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    I emailed Paula Reynolds and she said that whilst tumours can be operated on, in this case it's probably gone too far and there's a chance of it spreading, even if it's removed.

    So looks like I'll keep an eye on her and euthanize if she is showing signs of suffering.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Sorry to hear that mate. Hope it lives a nice long life.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  7. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    Cheers Fred.

    TBH given how quickly the tumour has grown recently, I can't see it making it through winter. But you never know.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  8. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    10,677
    Thanks / Likes
    16184
    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    Cheers Fred.

    TBH given how quickly the tumour has grown recently, I can't see it making it through winter. But you never know.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    It's a shame mate. Don t sound good. Fingers crossed mate.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  10. Thanks Koiz Thanked / Liked this Post
  11. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Koiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Cambs
    Posts
    479
    Thanks / Likes
    808
    This is such a sad situation and that tumour does look like it's growing at a rapid rate. I've had a shubunkin that had an abdominal tumour but that was quite a slow progression so she was with me for a good while before passing. I've got a lovely little Ochiba that has swim bladder issues with negative buoyancy, so she sinks like a stone and is frequently lunking. She is not growing as she should, so I know that she will be unlikely to live too long. But I adore her, and she will actually lay in my palm to eat at the surface so that she can get a good graze on before sinking! It's quite adorable. Then about 5 weeks ago, both my Sanke and Showa presented with what is now believed to be Hikkui on their heads. Again - nothing I can do, but it's ruined the appearance of two very lovely fish and I have no clue how it's going to progress and what their prognosis will be. So, I totally sympathise with how you are probably feeling. We love our koi for all manner of reasons, but their appearance is a big part of that, and it's very sad when their beauty becomes compromised.

    I've actually had quite a lot of experience of pets with tumours. I have a passion for fancy rats and they are prone to them. I've owned many rats and seen all manner of growths in a diversity of places, even on the top of the head. Where they were encapsulated, I used to have them operated on and removed, but sadly vets charges escalated exponentially and this became unaffordable in more recent years. What used to cost in the region of 50 for a removal, became 250+ In my experience, the rats were rarely bothered by them, in that they were not actually painful, and they managed to adapt life around them if they were in places that caused issues with walking (ie mammary tumours). Such rats took a bit more care, as you had to watch out and care for skin abrasions, but I only had to shorten the life of 1 rat with respect to quality of life when the tumour was taking more nutrition than the rat. In all honestly, the look of the tumour probably upset me more than it bothered the rat! I'm hopeful the same theory applies to fish and that, providing your Sanke continues to eat, then that is a good indicator she still has quality of life. I hope she gets the opportunity to enjoy at least one more summer with you
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  12. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  13. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    Thanks Koiz. Wow sounds like you've had to deal with your fair share of unwell pets - I suppose it's part and parcel of caring for animals. Still sucks though.

    I'm due to treat my pond for Tric. As I have sturgeon, I'm planning on treating with home made alparex e.g. malachite green and acriflavine both dosed at their normal amounts (Got that info from a post Feline made a few years back on another forum - thanks Feline).

    I'm wondering if/how well the Sanke will take it. I'll have some fresh water to hand in a spare container that I can put her in if she starts struggling. But really need to treat asap as the fish are starting to flash and jump.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  14. Thanks Koiz, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  15. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Koiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Cambs
    Posts
    479
    Thanks / Likes
    808
    Sorry to hear you have Trich Gill Tumor

    Is your pond heated? Just wondering how effective your treatment will be as temps are due to plummet come Wednesday. I believe Acriflavine min effective temp is 12.5c and MG 10c.

    When I had a mixed pond with Trich I used PP but removed the Orfe and salt dipped them instead. They stayed in a holding tank for the couple days I PP'd the pond. Worked fine.

    I've never owned Sturgeon and understand that they are very sensitive with specific requirements (deep water, lots of air), so not sure how a couple of days in a holding tank would effect them.

    Hopefully Feline will be along shortly to advise Gill Tumor

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  16. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  17. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    Yep, I'm unheated. I'm currently at 17.5C so plan to get the treatment in while I can before the water temps plummets.

    I don't have much time left as I want the bio filter to have a chance to bounce back before it gets cold.

    I do have a water tank I could just about fit the sturgeon in for a short period of time. So could maybe use pp in the pond whilst they're in the tub.

    I'm hesitant to do that however, as I put a sturgeon in the tank when it first got delivered and ended up dying on me. Hence why I'd rather leave them in and go down the MG and acriflavine route instead.

    From what I read it's one full dose of MG and acriflavine. And providing KH is 6 or above and it's well oxygenated, I'm hoping I don't encounter any problems.

    I'm guessing there is no second dose needed, but happy to be corrected.



    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  18. Thanks Koiz, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  19. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Koiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Cambs
    Posts
    479
    Thanks / Likes
    808
    Wish I could help but I'm afraid I've only ever used PP for Trich. Perhaps drop a DM to Feline?

    I can understand why you'd want to leave the sturgeon in the pond. This was one of my main reasons for going koi only last year ... makes treating for parasites so much easier Gill Tumor. Sturgeon are beautiful fish though - can quite understand their appeal.

    Do you have poly carbs you could put over your pond tomorrow? That would help the water hold its temp. Mine are going on tomorrow evening as I'm unheated too and night time temps are going down to 4c this week in Cambridgeshire Gill Tumor

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  20. Thanks freddyboy, Twhitenosugar Thanked / Liked this Post
  21. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Koiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Cambs
    Posts
    479
    Thanks / Likes
    808
    Just did a quick google - seems premixes suggest up to 3 doses 7 days apart. I'm guessing the best thing to do is scrape after the first dose (day 5 or 6) in the hope that all is clear.

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  22. Thanks freddyboy, Twhitenosugar Thanked / Liked this Post
  23. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    I'll be honest, I completely underestimated how prevalent parasites were when I bought the fish.

    I thought parasites were something that might occur on the odd occasion. When the reality seems to be a constant battle with multiple parasites that seem to be resistant to most chemicals going.

    With hindsight I think I would've got the koi stock all sorted first (is that a mythical point in time?) Before then introducing sturgeon, only so I'm not restricted in treatments to use whilst new stock go in.

    I do have poly carb covers so will put them on if it drops. Tbh I'm worried one will jump out with all the flashing going on at the mo, so putting a lid on the pond will help me sleep at night as well as keep it warm...ish.



    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  24. Thanks freddyboy, Koiz Thanked / Liked this Post
  25. #14
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    5,392
    Thanks / Likes
    3337
    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    Yep, I'm unheated. I'm currently at 17.5C so plan to get the treatment in while I can before the water temps plummets.

    I don't have much time left as I want the bio filter to have a chance to bounce back before it gets cold.

    I do have a water tank I could just about fit the sturgeon in for a short period of time. So could maybe use pp in the pond whilst they're in the tub.

    I'm hesitant to do that however, as I put a sturgeon in the tank when it first got delivered and ended up dying on me. Hence why I'd rather leave them in and go down the MG and acriflavine route instead.

    From what I read it's one full dose of MG and acriflavine. And providing KH is 6 or above and it's well oxygenated, I'm hoping I don't encounter any problems.

    I'm guessing there is no second dose needed, but happy to be corrected.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    For trich I would try one treatment and rescrape a few days later, but also make sure you do a thorough nooks and crannies clean as that may harbour some that can reinfest the fish.
    Sturgeon tolerate MG and acriflavine well normally.

    Just be aware that there have been issues with the Colombo Alparex premix (which is MG and acriflavine) where people had treated flukes in the weeks beforehand and had fish die. Seemed to be some kind of chemical reaction with the flukicide still in the water. Have you used any fluke product within the past month?

  26. Thanks freddyboy, Twhitenosugar, Koiz Thanked / Liked this Post
  27. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    Thanks for confirming that for me Feline. Gill Tumor

    I read about the horrors some people had with Alparex. Even though the KH out of my tap is 11, its quite low in the pond at the mo. So I've been adding bi carb to get the KH above 6, as well as water changes, to really buffer the acidity of the Acriflavin when I come to treat.

    The other issue people seemed to have is oxygen levels crashing. I'm well aerated and am treating at cooler temperatures than most who had issues with treating, so I'm hoping I won't experience any problems on that front.Gill Tumor

    I understand Trich is a sign of dirty water. The pond floor is spotless and I purge the bottom drain before I do weekly water changes so they should both be clean. The pond is fibreglassed so no liner creases to worry about.

    But just to be sure, I've ordered a 200 micron filter sock. The plan is I'll put this on the air lift that I usually use as the main circulation pump and will use it as a pond vac to clear any crud that's settled out in the air lift tank and will do the same with the pond. I'm hoping it will help remove the fines that have built up in the pond at the same time.

    I recently cleaned out my diy shower filter (now wondering if that disturbed some Trich). So the only other area that could harbour crud is the moving bed bio filter, although I'm hoping it's fairly clean in there as it gets plenty of air to keep it moving, it's after a 50micron drum and is only coming up to being a year old.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  28. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  29. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    316
    Thanks / Likes
    501
    Nope I've fortunately not had to treat for Flukes in the past month.

    I think last time I did that (colombo lernex) was in June or July. So I'm hoping that has either been diluted out or degraded by bacteria, UV etc...

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

  30. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
 

 

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:06 AM. Online Koi Mag Forum
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3
Copyright © 2020 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

vBulletin Improved By vBFoster® (Lite Version), © UltimateScheme, Ltd.