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Thread: Sad Koi

  1. #1
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Sad Koi

    First of all let me say hello - I've used the forum for advice before, but never signed up.
    Apologies in advance for wittering on below...!

    I've had fish since I was a kid; I'm now 50, and 8 years ago we moved into a house with a 6kl pond which in Feb we moved/upgraded to a 23kl with EA kit (see signature) as recommended and installed by a local pond company.
    We moved the existing (5 koi, 2 orfe, 2 goldfish, mixed 6-18") in April, and 9 days ago received our order from CarpCo of 7 koi and 2 sturgeon (all only 4-6").
    All good until Monday when a couple of our older medium-sized koi (about 12-14") went all fins down, lazily hanging in the water, not eating etc - the large koi, orfe and new koi all seem quite happy but I'm worried sick that the new fish brought something with them, even though they seem happy as larry (only ever seen one sturgeon at a time, though...?).

    Water tests show PH7, no Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Phosphate 1, Oxygen 7. I've done weekly for past month or so, and nothing of concern.

    On Tuesday, I dosed with a full litre of Medifin and turned off the UV. Apart from the water now being quite murky, the fish seem about the same - no marked improvement.

    Any thoughts/ideas welcome.
    Also, does anyone have experience with the Nexus filtration system?
    Thanks in advance!


    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai bicolormoth's Avatar
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    welcome to the forum.
    1. why did you 'treat with Medifin' ?
    2. why did you turn off the UV ?

    you need to take a scrape of your 'sad koi' to see if there is a parasite problem.
    5000g, Drum Filter/Gravity, + MBB, Skimmer-Sieve-Shower.

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  4. #3
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Thanks!

    I always have a bottle of Medifin as it's a broad-spectrum treatment and in the absence of anything else, thought it was worth a try - not 'best prectice' I know, but...
    And the instructions advise to turn off UV to 'maximise effectiveness'.
    I don't (currently) have the facility to examine a scrape...is this something I need to sort - if so, any advice for microscope equipment etc?

    Thanks again
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

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  6. #4
    If the water peramiters are good then you need to gets scrapes done to check for parasites. Then choose the correct treatment for the problem.


    Since you have sturgeon it might make things more awkward as some treatments are a big problem for them, adding much more air during the treatment is a must.

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  8. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    The new fish are ok because they have been living with the parasites and are used to it. The older fish are now infected and not happy.

    A scrape seen under a scope is the only proper solution.
    Are they flashing, spitting food out, hanging motion less head down?
    Treatments on that volume will start to add up.

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  10. #6
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Makes sense about the new fish being used to it and the older ones not - I haven't introduced any new fish for about 3 years.
    My wife is a teacher and is going to see if she can borrow a microscope on Monday.
    Flashing? I've only witnessed it on one occasion, by the worst of the two koi that seem to be affected.
    Hanging head down - YES!

    For treating, would it be best is an aerated bath, or would it depend on the treatment? Or would it best to treat the whole pond anyway since I guess all of the residents may be affected to a greater or lesser extent?

    Despite the fact I've had fish for years, I've rarely had problems (apart from the odd one just popping off by itself) so this diagnosis/treatment is a new thing for me...thanks for helping!
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

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  12. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    A single treatment in quarantine might work for a fish that's got dropsy or an ulcer etc, something that's only affecting the one fish.
    If the pond has parasites and several Fish are showing symptoms then the treatment needs to be the complete setup, even filters, otherwise the critters are still there to reinfect.

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  14. #8
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    OK, I have a microscope and slides so all ready to do a scrape...just need to catch the bugger now - amazing how fast it moves when the net is near
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

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  16. #9
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Hi people, well I'm embarrassed to say that despite 5 goes yesterday, I was unable to catch ANY of my fish, let alone THE fish that I wanted. Even went and bought another net so now I've got two.

    Part of me thinks "well, it can't be that sick", part of me thinks that if I keep trying to chase them around then they will all get stressed, and then part of me thinks I really do need to scrape something even if it's not that one!
    Funny thing is, I was (and am) worried about taking the samples (especially the gill), but I don't think about catching the things in my big, round, deep pond!!!

    Any advice welcomed by this novice...
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

  17. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Kyusai Scamp's Avatar
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    Hi as said you need to scrape to ascertain the issue. Head down and off food, is a possible sign of parasites. To catch, do you have a larger diameter 'Pan' net, idea to slowly raise the net under the fish, and angled up at the head end of the fish slightly, in case they jump. Pan headed nets are easier to catch fish as they tend to have a larger diameter netting, and therefore a little easier to manoeuvre...good luck!

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  19. #11
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Hi everyone, OK I finally caught an orfe (not the koi that was sick but now seems much better and quite lively) after rigging up what I can only describe as a trawl net. It seems my koi are highly intelligent and far too on the ball for me to catch them!
    I got a light scrape and have hopefully attached some photos I managed to get at 100x and 400x.
    Assuming I'm looking at this right - those who have done it before (unlike me) will be able to see if I'm looking at the right things - there was NOTHING MOVING. I take this as a good sign.
    Is anyone able to confirm for me? If at all possible, I want to avoid more stress for them...
    Thank you!
    IMG_2701.jpgIMG_2704.jpgIMG_2702.jpgIMG_2703.jpg
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Hi Rob, if you need to net more for further scrapes, maybe try lowering your water level by a foot or two to give them less water to escaping into.

    I know what you mean about stressing them. I had a Chagoi bleeding from the gills from stress of netting him to do a scrape (and i kept him the net to do the scrapes rather than bowl him up).

    But the short term stress is outweighed by being able to diagnose and eradicate what ever parasite it is that's causing the issues.

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  22. #13
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Hi guys...after a couple of weeks where I thought we were over the problem, I identified a couple of fish behaving 'not right' even though the one with the original problem is fine.
    Managed to catch and scrape, and found the attached...looks like Chilodonella to me, but this is the first proper scrape I've ever done and examined, so would appreciate some expert advice to confirm diagnosis and suggest best course of action.
    Thank you

    IMG_2730.jpg
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

  23. #14
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    I just had another look and have found just one, what I think is Trichodina...?
    Photo of that attached, along with better one of what I think is Chilodonella.
    Thanks in advance for any further advice.

    IMG_2730 (2).jpgIMG_2733.jpg
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

  24. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    They are great slide examples.

    I am confident that you have identified both Chilodonella and Trichodina

    Fortunately treatments are the same so you should be able to deal with it in one hit.

    What was you planning to treat with?


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  26. #16
    Junior Member Rank = Fry rob26's Avatar
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    Thanks Mikeh83 - just put my iphone over the scope...although I'd much rather not be in the position of being able to photograph parasites from my koi!!!

    I did treat with MGF (1L Medifin) exactly 3 weeks ago, which helped the couple that weren't happy at the time, but over the weekend I notice a 4-inch flashing and a 5-inch swimming erratically. All the bigger ones seem OK.

    I do have another 1L of Medifin I could use, but I was just in the middle of checking out dosage rates to see if I'd be better buying 'MG' and 'F' separately and dosing myself (bearing in mind Orfe & Sturgeon, but they were fine last time).

    The other thing is, I've only just cleared my green water after having turned off the UV for 5 days...but that's a small issue compared to parasites.

    What do you think?
    23,000l, bottom drain, splash return, EA Nexus 320 Auto, EA evo55 UV, EA AP130, Oase Aquamax 14000.

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  28. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Focus on the Chilodonella if you are planning different treatments as Chilodonella is more likely kill koi imo and the treatment should clear the Tric anyway.

    I would be treating with MGF

    I believe PP is the most effective treatment for tric if the MGF does not sort it. But a single Tric is not the end of the world.

    I do not have any first hand experience in treating either parasites so hopefully someone else will come along and confirm.


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  30. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    I agree with Mike's comments.... MGF or PP.
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