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Thread: Need help with finding parasites
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26-07-2020, 08:28 PM #141
[QUOTE=RS2OOO;343973]I had same dilemma mate.
Pond was salted (long story as to why, which I won't go into here), then Paula suggested the PDF, and it was her that said remove the salt first so the PDF isn't just trying to counteract the salt.
Seeing as 0.3% salt wasn't making any improvements in my situation rather then get rid of it straight away what I did was increase the salt to 0.6% for 1.5 weeks. The koi actually seemed happier (plants didn't and filter got knocked back for a day) but I don't think it fixed the problem I was trying to resolve, part of which did include koi spitting food out, and they did stop spitting the morning after salt had been increased to 0.6% but I believe that was coincidence as the spitting is an intermittent problem and does stop for periods of time.
After 1.5 weeks i did 65% water change followed a few days later by a 35% water change and then a few days of trickle in/out to further reduce the remaining salt (which I now estimate to be around 0.15%).
In my case Paula suggested the food spitting was very unlikely to be a gill problem (my diagnosis) but more likely to be caused by something leaching hence my current use of PDF.
Here's something for you to try, feed the koi (by hand of possible) mussels and see if they spit those out, I bet they don't!
If they don't then try soaking the pellets first to soften them and see if they still get spat out. Would be interested to see your findings.
Oh ok mate, see what you mean. its one of those tricky situations
mine were still spitting regardless of salt content , was 0.6 now down to 3 , spitting has become intermittent none happening today and less rubbing
I'll get some mussels and let you know what happens and soaking pellets first . , gave them Prawns a few weeks back they were fighting over them none were spat out.
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26-07-2020, 08:31 PM #142
Think you've answered the question then Mark if they weren't spitting prawns.
And if they're not used to mussels they might spit at first anyway. I just assumed you already feed mussels regularly (a lot cheaper then prawns and just as good for the koi).
In which case try soaking the pellets to make them soft and see if they still get spat out.
If it is only hard pellets that get spat out then the symptoms are the same as mine.
If they are really bad mine will spit soft foods out as well, but it's very rare and only lasts a day or 2.
My personal diagnosis for that behaviour would be a problem with the gills or a problem with the teeth, but Paula said no, it's more likely to be a digestion problem, and she is the one person who definitely knows what's she's talking about!
Finding the cause is a process of elimination, starting with the PDF.
But I must point out the food spitting my koi experience is not restricted to just one or 2, most of them go through stages of it and it can last one day to 4 weeks or any period of time in between, or none will do it for a few months and then it will start up again. There is also bouts of lethargy as well, and occasional bottom sitting which again is pretty random across the population and not necessarily the same koi that are spitting.
None of mine are doing it right now (don't know if due to the PDF or not), so it's likely to be a long path to finding the cause.
Paula said if they start doing it while the PDF is going in then the next step is blood tests.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using TapatalkLast edited by RS2OOO; 26-07-2020 at 08:41 PM.
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26-07-2020, 08:51 PM #143
you got some stunners in your pond mate, to be honest very similar behaviour to what i see during feeding.
Mrs does the shopping i get what im given i used to give a 2ft long red tail catfish frozen king prawns lol
mrs has put the Mussels on her shopping list for me . she buys prawns cus she love them
need to identify whats stressing them out can only be poor water quality ie not keeping PH in check pond leeching or IPC tank. I cant think of anything else that could cause this.
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26-07-2020, 09:09 PM #144
I suspect You're right and it is one of those factors now that parasites have been properly ruled out.
Farm foods are doing 3x 800 gram bags of frozen mussels for a tenner. They will last all summer.
I used to think Asda's 3x 400g bags for a tenner was a good deal!
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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26-07-2020, 09:17 PM #145
mines restricted to a few that spit food, and have spat food that has gone soft on the surface after eventually coming up from sitting on the bottom, where at least 4 of mine do this alot and these are the largest koi effected for what ever reason
i have tried winter ntlabs medikoi wheatgerm with garlic which have never been spat out in the past and the same was true this time
their seems to be alot of variable's that have different effects on behaviour .
its possibly the best solution to my long term problem is ordering PDF .
Thanks
Mark
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26-07-2020, 09:40 PM #146
Also consider things like the container you keep the food in just in case the food is sweating in there and something leaching off the container.
If you do suspect an environmental issue you have to think of everything imaginable.
I even removed the home made lid off my Nexus in case that was leaching.
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27-07-2020, 01:40 PM #147
food tub should be fine its ment for cereal and has an air tight seal .
whats the lid for your nexus made from?
ive seem some people make lids from wood decking
done 20% water change yesterday, koi have noticeable perked up some more, rubbing reduced further , during filling back up i noticed a black steel screw on the pond floor right at the back of the pond that was heavily corroded being black made it impossible to see
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27-07-2020, 05:11 PM #148
My Nexus is under cover (not affected by wind) and lid is made from PE foam which is the graphite grey underlay often used with laminate flooring.
3x 6mm sheets glued together and cut to the shape of the Nexus with a Draco drum sized hole in the middle and a Draco drum sized box on top which is made out of 50mm cellotex.
My cover is designed to insulate the Nexus and silence the drum so it cannot be heard, as opposed to making it weather proof.
I think it unlikely anything would be leaching from those seemingly inert materials but I removed it as part of the process of elimination.
It is surprises like the screw that you just never know what they might be doing. It's hard to imagine a screw being enough to affect koi health but I guess you just never know, especially after the story Paula said about a pipe seal causing someone issues.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using TapatalkLast edited by RS2OOO; 27-07-2020 at 05:14 PM.
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markini5 Thanked / Liked this Post
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27-07-2020, 05:43 PM #149
where have you used the G4 mark ? Glad Gazkoi was able to come and have a look at your pond / set up.....
even though nothing definitive was found, it just puts your mind at ease a little bit knowing another pair of eyes
has had a look, you'll get it sorted in the end I'm sure.....
Thanks for the PM Gazkoi.......yeah agree, couldn't have my garden in that state either
I don't think he can hear us...........do you.......
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27-07-2020, 07:02 PM #150Hobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.
Always happy to help!!
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27-07-2020, 07:03 PM #151
One thing I have learned since visiting is Formalin can breakdown plastics which may point the finger towards the IBC.
Cheers
GazHobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.
Always happy to help!!
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28-07-2020, 12:08 AM #152
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28-07-2020, 05:18 PM #153
'' Where do you get all this information from '' ME.. of course................ As if you didn't know that RS......
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31-07-2020, 07:04 PM #154
[QUOTE=anne;344176]where have you used the G4 mark ? Glad Gazkoi was able to come and have a look at your pond / set up.....
even though nothing definitive was found, it just puts your mind at ease a little bit knowing another pair of eyes
has had a look, you'll get it sorted in the end I'm sure.....
Hi Anne,
G4 is what the pond is painted with as opposed to fiberglass or a liner, at the time i got a great deal only spent £120 on clear and black to coat 3000 gallons pond , with 5kg of black remaining , a tiny amount has been used to paint my diy bakki shower as well.
thanks
mark
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31-07-2020, 07:51 PM #155
Some positive news finally
since monday flashing has reduced massively progressively better each day ,
API high range PH test arrived monday , everyday since then ph has been 8.4 KH value 9 been testing first thing in the morning 8am ish and no drop that i can see.
water temp today hit 21c amazing peak temp last year with tiled roof and insulated was 16c fish are loving the warmer water and are little pigs
RS2000 , gave them Mussels first day (tuesday) were spitting them out eventually eating them, wednesday , they were snatching them from my fingers lol no spitting , it break them up so the smaller fish get a nibble . soft food no spitting, but also normal food is no longer spat out .
As im seeing a dramatic turn around, i will leave PDF for now , if my luck runs out i will order some.
i will be ordering aqua source balance vitalize from Gaz and possibly some better food any recommendations?
shame Gaz doesnt sell much at the moment as would like to put more sales his way .
love his stock of koi, wonder if best to wait now till next year before buying some koi .
PS looking to buy an air source heat pump (new) soon ideally before this winter
IPC container is now lined with a pond liner, was a bugger to do, getting the container out was a major strain in this heat
that fish that was very poorly is still poorly with severely raised scales on one side , and some raised on the otherside where id given him his last injections , been salt bathing 10mins 3% once a day having only a minor benefit .
I have now a refractometer and pond is salted back to 0.5 up from 3 , just as a temporary for next few weeks to aid those with raised scaled and open wounds from flashing which thankfully is rare to see now. just the odd flash few times a day from those with sores and raised scales which are showing signs of healing but very slowly .
i have also bathed those fish that were the worst effected from flashing , strangely one fish (large chagoi) reacted very badly to 3% salt and instantly rolled on to his side i straight away put him back in the pond to recover before trying again as he was the last fish to bath i reduced the salt level to 2% he was not stressed with that 10 mins later back in the pond.
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01-08-2020, 12:01 AM #156
So pleased to hear things are finally improving for your fish. Since returning my koi to their pond after their Costia debacle I've fed them only soaked food and they love it. I believe it's better for their digestion and more natural than hard dry food - after all, what would be that sort of consistency in their natural habitat?! I make sure to soak their food fresh everytime though so that it doesn't hang around long before it's fed so no risk of mould or bacteria growth on it. I've been reading how you should avoid feeding old, out of date or fusty smelling food as it can compromise their immune system. I've also soaked food in fresh orange juice and sprinkled garlic powder into the mix and that went down well too. I'm feeding NTLabs Medikoi (Health, Staple and Growth) at the mo. Good price, low waste, no water discolouration. I have noticed though that my Shiro and Sorogoi have gone quite yellow tinged. Now, whether this is from the orange or the Health (which is yellow in colour), I'm not sure, so playing around with the combinations at the mo. Worth looking at Aquasource foods too. Deano has some great articles about food on his website. I've used his 50/50 floating sinking and it was fine.
Can't recommend the Vitalize highly enough. Look into Enzyme too. I've used both with good results.
I'm wondering if you could use a salt paste for your poorly koi with the raised scales. Would be less stressful than a whole body dip. Came across this idea recently on YouTube. Worth a try?
https://youtu.be/4Zm4AmNjp6U
Sent from my SM-N910F using TapatalkLast edited by Koiz; 01-08-2020 at 12:04 AM.
11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade
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01-08-2020, 12:41 AM #157
Thanks mate , been a long struggle but we are getting there been enjoying them some fish that aint hand fed for months are now hand feeding again.
i can finally crack on with house decorating , finishing the pond/roof
glad yours are better now as well. hopefully no more issues this year.
Ive never heard of food turning white skin yellow, my thoughts were water or internal organ related like in humans if we have kidney/liver issues our skin can yellow. quick search fount this for you to help rule out potential issues
https://www.koiorganisationinternati...-instead-white
yer so many food to choose from Jpd was one will look at aqua source foods .
mine leaves a tiny residue on the surface Queni koi japan mix.
brushing salt paste on maybe a good idea , the area to treat those is huge possibly 40 scales involved . he's ok in the bath even after 10 mins with no side effects still swimming around .
ive noticed he is gaining strength as each day passes which is a good sign.
was shocked at the end of that video to see chickens near the pond, first thought that came into my mind was highly likely of parasite/bacteria from chickens getting into the pond.
yes mate will look into Enzyme as well, completely forgot about that.
thanks
mark
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01-08-2020, 12:51 AM #158
Sounds like a nice gradual improvement markini, let's hope it continues.
Koiz, carp do eat hard foods on the wild and also shelled creatures which they crush. I didn't know that originally, it was Paula who told me when discussing the koi spitting issues.
I'm also interested in that Aquasource food for next year. Think it was m00ny on another thread who said it is made by House of Kata. Currently feeding mine Top Koi, they love it but I'm seeing a lot of waste on pond floor in the mornings which breaks up very easily and takes a few hours to clear. I have 15kg left that will easily last the rest of this summer but will look at trying the Aquasource Hi Growth for next year.
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01-08-2020, 12:58 AM #159
Hi markini,
I've not been impressed with JPD food. Other people also have had concerns. I did an experiment comparing foods and JPD stained/clouded water worse than any other food I compared with it.
Turns out the JPD available in the UK is not the same as JPD in Japan and for the EU market it is made by Coppens, not by JPD themselves.
So as per your article, JPD Shori is probably great... but only if it's imported from its home factory.
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01-08-2020, 01:14 AM #160
thank you mate,
I also have waste on one corner on of pond , largely due to not sloping to floor when i poured the concrete , and the flow rate not being high enough from the bottom drain to pull the waste towards it properly enough .
Hope to cure this with my mk2 DIY drum that will sit 500mm more below the water line with a drum twice the size of my current 300mm dia . upto 600mm dia i maybe wrong in my theory but the hope is the flow will be much greater which would increase to pull across the bottom of the pond sucking all the debris/waste away
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
Running heater at low temp?
Covering the pond with polycarb should be enough to stop water temps dipping below 6C for the most...