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  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    So sorry to hear you are still having such issues, and totally understand how you are feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    ... will have a look at that gaz thanks , seen some at £100 with is mental for a tiny device
    I had to buy a salt meter last year and went with the Koi Medic. It's very good, comes calibrated. Not cheap, but it is a very useful bit of kit to have. Good price from here at the mo: http://www.dankoi.com/Koi-Medic/Koi-Medic-Instruments-p-154.html

    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    ... anyone here do PP dip's ? its a first for me. i cant understand why my koi barely produce mucus some have non at all.
    All dips are harsh, but PP especially, so do please give this careful consideration. I think you really need to know what you are targeting to make that decision (which has been my problem with this 'costia' all along!). As for mucus - do your fish feel smooth and slippery to touch or rough? If the first, then they have a good slime coat covering, even if you don't get a lot of mucus coming off on a scrape. All the treatments they have been through would have disrupted the slime coat, and certainly salt would strip then encourage it back. Too much mucus is not necessarily a good sign anyway, as that can be a reaction to parasites, so unless the fish are actually feeling rough to touch, I'm not sure you need to worry about this
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    So sorry to hear you are still having such issues, and totally understand how you are feeling.


    I had to buy a salt meter last year and went with the Koi Medic. It's very good, comes calibrated. Not cheap, but it is a very useful bit of kit to have. Good price from here at the mo: http://www.dankoi.com/Koi-Medic/Koi-Medic-Instruments-p-154.html


    All dips are harsh, but PP especially, so do please give this careful consideration. I think you really need to know what you are targeting to make that decision (which has been my problem with this 'costia' all along!). As for mucus - do your fish feel smooth and slippery to touch or rough? If the first, then they have a good slime coat covering, even if you don't get a lot of mucus coming off on a scrape. All the treatments they have been through would have disrupted the slime coat, and certainly salt would strip then encourage it back. Too much mucus is not necessarily a good sign anyway, as that can be a reaction to parasites, so unless the fish are actually feeling rough to touch, I'm not sure you need to worry about this
    thanks for that link , will have alook.

    90% of my koi with scales are rough to touch , non scaled koi are smooth to touch but not slippery

  4. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    90% of my koi with scales are rough to touch , non scaled koi are smooth to touch but not slippery
    Not sure I like the sound of that . Google 'Sandpaper skin on Koi' and see if anything mentioned resembles what you are experiencing.
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  6. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Not sure I like the sound of that . Google 'Sandpaper skin on Koi' and see if anything mentioned resembles what you are experiencing.
    my deformed sanke is like this , very sad to read, he has nearly died twice in last 2 weeks , swimming well now . others aint anywhere near this bad, no redness or patches raised scales ect, just a bit rough to touch as zero mucus .

    just ordered 5x 25kg bags of pdv salt , £55.99 delivered reasonably priced. just need to decide on a salt meter , so many to pick first dose of salt i dont need the meter but need to account for 10% weekly water change

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  8. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    need to account for 10% weekly water change
    This is where the salt meter is vital. Honestly, I balked at the price of the koi medic but I'm glad I got it in the end. When working with salt you'll use it everyday - sometimes several times a day!

    Really hope the salt helps.

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  10. #26
    update

    my trickle flow was a bit too fast causing the pond to over flow DOH.

    Done water testing

    PH 6.5
    Ammonia 0
    nitrite 0
    KH 7
    GH10

    WATER TEMP 17.9C

    tap water has PH of 7

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  12. #27
    what other methods other than baking soda can be used to keep PH Around 7.5 once baking soda has lifted PH up over next week?

    thanks

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  14. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    This is where the salt meter is vital. Honestly, I balked at the price of the koi medic but I'm glad I got it in the end. When working with salt you'll use it everyday - sometimes several times a day!

    Really hope the salt helps.

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
    still got issues with rubbing, despite PP dip , despite pond now salted , PH is swinging morning and afternoon by 0.5 KH Was only 35 this evening with PH back to 7.3 ish hard to tell on this API tester only gives reading in .5 increment's
    tap water i now on .. ordered 10kg of baking soda.

    im thinking that my fish too many large ones and large bio chamber are consuming KH too fast even with 10% trickle water change weekly.
    need to test KH of tap water next.

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  16. #29
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi markini,
    The API low range PH test kit is pretty good as I believe it measures in 0.2 increments. Their kits come with both low range and high range tests and I only use the latter so have unopened test regents with expiry dates going back to 2003 just sitting in the cupboard! They still test accurately so let me know if you want one. I have offered them for free on here before but got no takers, although I may not be in a position to post one out for a few days.

    From what you're saying a picture of a fluctuating pH is emerging, maybe I've misunderstood but if that's the case it could well be the cause of your problems.

    Beyond that you need to consider bacterial issues, whether in the sores created by flashing and/or bacterial gill disease regarding the pus from gills that Anne referred to. In this case I understand CT to be an appropriate treatment at dosages much higher than on the manufacturers labels, but CT alongside a fluctuating pH especially at high dosages is potentially lethal so you'd need to be certain of a stable pH before going down that route and then administering at a dosage that will deal with bacterial issues without killing your koi. At low pH that could be a real balancing act.

    I wouldn't be comfortable with the PP dip, but have no experience of it to comment further.

    The other easy option is to get pH stable and go for 0.6% salt for a couple of weeks as you've already alluded to.

    Good luck.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  18. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Hi markini,
    The API low range PH test kit is pretty good as I believe it measures in 0.2 increments. Their kits come with both low range and high range tests and I only use the latter so have unopened test regents with expiry dates going back to 2003 just sitting in the cupboard! They still test accurately so let me know if you want one. I have offered them for free on here before but got no takers, although I may not be in a position to post one out for a few days.

    From what you're saying a picture of a fluctuating pH is emerging, maybe I've misunderstood but if that's the case it could well be the cause of your problems.

    Beyond that you need to consider bacterial issues, whether in the sores created by flashing and/or bacterial gill disease regarding the pus from gills that Anne referred to. In this case I understand CT to be an appropriate treatment at dosages much higher than on the manufacturers labels, but CT alongside a fluctuating pH especially at high dosages is potentially lethal so you'd need to be certain of a stable pH before going down that route and then administering at a dosage that will deal with bacterial issues without killing your koi. At low pH that could be a real balancing act.

    I wouldn't be comfortable with the PP dip, but have no experience of it to comment further.

    The other easy option is to get pH stable and go for 0.6% salt for a couple of weeks as you've already alluded to.

    Good luck.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    thanks for the reply,

    if im at 1/4 ounce currently whats 0.6% is it 0.6% ounce ?

    PP Only helped for couple of hours , but left the fish with burns to their mouths all brown , wont recommend doing it far to harsh has actually perked a few fish up but the stress of such a treatment i think has caused white round lumps to form on one of my fish tail and they have come up very quickly . similar to carp pox surely too warm 18c for carp pox.

    with KH testing is it recommended to lightly shake the test tube after each drop their is no mention of this but reading up many people seem to do it. if i lightly stir it after each drop i get 2 drops and its yellow, with no stiring its 7 drops
    which is correct way?

    my water quality surely is off , my bakki shower produces lots of bubbles that dont dissolve on the surface

    i will order the low range PH test , need more accurate results colour is usually inbetween eventually will by a digital PH tester.

    CT is something i will have to consider , never used it before
    need to get on top of PH and buffering 150 -200ppm is what i read to aim for unless im a pro (have theirs much lower) which i am not..
    whats an acceptable PH Swing in in a 12 hour period 0.2 or similar. ?
    so far 1/4 ounce of salt made no positive difference , 4 large fish now sit on the pond bottom all day barely move. and if they do its to flash.

    its really depressing.

    thanks
    Mark

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  20. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    thanks for the reply,

    if im at 1/4 ounce currently whats 0.6% is it 0.6% ounce ?

    PP Only helped for couple of hours , but left the fish with burns to their mouths all brown , wont recommend doing it far to harsh has actually perked a few fish up but the stress of such a treatment i think has caused white round lumps to form on one of my fish tail and they have come up very quickly . similar to carp pox surely too warm 18c for carp pox.

    with KH testing is it recommended to lightly shake the test tube after each drop their is no mention of this but reading up many people seem to do it. if i lightly stir it after each drop i get 2 drops and its yellow, with no stiring its 7 drops
    which is correct way?

    my water quality surely is off , my bakki shower produces lots of bubbles that dont dissolve on the surface

    i will order the low range PH test , need more accurate results colour is usually inbetween eventually will by a digital PH tester.

    CT is something i will have to consider , never used it before
    need to get on top of PH and buffering 150 -200ppm is what i read to aim for unless im a pro (have theirs much lower) which i am not..
    whats an acceptable PH Swing in in a 12 hour period 0.2 or similar. ?
    so far 1/4 ounce of salt made no positive difference , 4 large fish now sit on the pond bottom all day barely move. and if they do its to flash.

    its really depressing.

    thanks
    Mark
    When I do kh testing. I don t shake bottle test tube. I just move it once from top to bottom. Like a half turn if that makes sense. Api test kit.

    When I pp dip. I do 10ml per 9 gallons.
    Nt labs liquid type of pp. For 20 minutes dip.
    Never had a problem with after affects on fish.

    You have done a lot of treatments on your fish if I remember right. I think flukes and costia.
    Same as a few of us. On here. Maybe all the treatments added up. Is causing the after affects on your fish.

    As RS has said. You may have found your problem now. In the PH. And KH. Swings.
    And maybe the parasite problems are happening because of fish stressing. Because of this.

    Feel for you mate. As we have just been through it. RS myself. And wendy. And yourself.

    Ps if you go to manky sanke site. He has a salt chart for water volume. Or mail him.
    Fred





    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  22. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    When I do kh testing. I don t shake bottle test tube. I just move it once from top to bottom. Like a half turn if that makes sense. Api test kit.

    When I pp dip. I do 10ml per 9 gallons.
    Nt labs liquid type of pp. For 20 minutes dip.
    Never had a problem with after affects on fish.

    You have done a lot of treatments on your fish if I remember right. I think flukes and costia.
    Same as a few of us. On here. Maybe all the treatments added up. Is causing the after affects on your fish.

    As RS has said. You may have found your problem now. In the PH. And KH. Swings.
    And maybe the parasite problems are happening because of fish stressing. Because of this.

    Feel for you mate. As we have just been through it. RS myself. And wendy. And yourself.

    Ps if you go to manky sanke site. He has a salt chart for water volume. Or mail him.
    Fred





    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    Thanks for the reply Fred,

    yes thats what i ment by shaking thats exactly what i do (half turn after each drop)

    after a bit of testing

    pond water
    PH 7.3
    KH 2

    PH Is slightly higher than last weeks readings with a 3c drop in water temps

    tap water
    PH 7.5
    KH 4

    so it seems that tap water alone isnt enough to buffer pond KH , is that correct ?

    yes they have had alot of treatments , im not going to use any more treatments for a bit other than raise salt level of the pond let them recover from for abit unless things take a bad turn

    ive had fluke, tric, costia, ulcers, fin rot, dropsy since i built this pond in oct 2018

    will have alook on manky sanke site . to double check.

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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Hi Markini, just a thought - have you tested for Nitrate because if that is too high that could be adding to your problems also. You need to test it in both your pond and tap water because often it can be quite high from the mains so water changes can be tricky. Good article from Manky about Nitrate here.

    I’m struggling with all my params at the mo from NPS, made worse because I don’t have any plants to take up the Nitrate and it’s at 20ppm in mains supply! It does fluctuate a lot in my water supply, as does phosphate, so I’m hoping it’ll drop down again soon. Just means I’m spending a lot of time every day doing tests and getting very frustrated at the variable results from all the kits (I’ve got 4 - NT Labs, API, Columbo, JBL) – but that’s a rant for another thread! As for KH (and GH) testing – yes – you need to mix each drop with a gentle swish to see the full colour change, and depending on which kit you are using, you either count from drop one, or the second drop so important to make sure you've read the instructions carefully. All kits are different so it can get pretty confusing. I record all my tests on a spreadsheet to keep track of what kits I'm using and analyse the effects of any actions (chems, temps, feeds, etc) on the params in the hope I'll eventually find the best way to prevent or manage any problems in the future.

    Which API kit do you have? I've got the API Freshwater Master Test Kit which includes Nitrate and the high and low PH ranges which go up in 0.4 and 0.2 increments, as RS mentioned. The Nitrate colour chart between 10-20ppm, and 40-80ppm are, for me, impossible to differentiate, but anything over 25ppm is not ideal so it’s still a good indicator.

    If you are going to maintain salt in the pond with a trickle change, you really do need the salt meter I’m afraid. It’ll be impossible to gauge the % accurately otherwise as it’ll need topping up all the time. The meter makes it so easy to get it right. And don't forget, you've got to get the salt out eventually too, and the only way to know how that is going is with a meter. It takes a lot of water to get the salt down. BTW - and sorry if you already know this - it's important to dissolve the salt first in a bucket of pond water before adding to avoid any clouds of salt that could cause burns, and add it very slowly as any sudden rise in salinity can really stress the fish too. Again, this is why I like my salt meter as I can raise the salt by 0.01% at a time if necessary!

    As Fred said, your poor fish have had a treatment onslaught, so unless you can find any actual parasite to target now, the best hope is to make their water as ideal as poss and give them some help to recuperate – which is exactly what I’m now doing with mine. And as RS said – you’ll be watching like a hawk and any little twitch, dart or odd behaviour will make your heart skip cos that’s exactly what I’m going through too. It’s not much fun, and not what I had in mind when I built my pond

    Manky’s Bicarb dosing guide here is very useful for getting the KH up, but another thing that may be worth considering is adding AquaSource Vitalize. It’s ‘all natural’ and using with salt will enhance its benefits. I’d love to know exactly what’s in it, but other than stating vitamins and Aloe Vera on the label, unfortunately Dean Dimarco of AquaSource is keeping that a closely guarded secret ... I have asked him! However, it was used by Japan Koi Import as part of their regime to heal my Yama from its jaw injury, and I’ve been using it on mine to help them recover from their chemical soup. Since they’ve been back in the pond 6 days ago, I’ve dosed a couple of times at 50ml / 1000L as this acts to both neutralise any chlorine, chloramine or metals, from my current high flow trickle changes, as well as helping to boost their recovery. I’ve got three fish with torn tails from their time in the Intex and the bleeding scales on the Shiro, and I’m honestly gobsmacked at how fast they are healing as the pond is unsalted and unheated. I also added some left over AquaSource Enzyme (about 1/3 sphere), so that may have helped too as it’s another immune and digestion booster. Queni Koi prices for AquaSource water additives is very good at the mo

    Food wise - I’m feeding NT Labs Medikoi Health currently (cos it was on offer, they really like it and I get virtually no waste at all). For every feed of about 22g for my 9 fish, I soak in orange juice and sprinkle with garlic powder and wait for the pellets to swell to about twice their size before giving a good stir and feeding. Fish love it and its easy to digest so again, lessening any stress on their systems. They are getting a max of 3 feeds per day to control the NH3 and NO2 spikes, plus a bit of lettuce and water melon, but I think (hope) this protocol is helping to boost them too. They certainly enjoy playing with the lettuce and melon, which is another good way to judge how they are feeling in themselves
    Last edited by Koiz; 29-06-2020 at 07:20 PM.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  26. #34
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Just back in from today's lettuce feeding frenzy and thought I'd share some pics of how improved the Shiro's scales and the Showa's tail are:

    Shiro Healing.JPG
    Showa Tail Split Healing.JPG

    I think that's some pretty remarkable healing. I've had split fins before, and they've taken months and months to improve even fractionally, and that's when I had my pond salted to 0.89% in conjunction with Flukesolve for the skin flukes last year. I'm amazed at this rapid repair and can't help but feel the Vitalize and Enzyme must have played a role given how stressed these fish have been. Of course, I'd like to think it's just adding orange and garlic to their feed as that'd be a wonderfully inexpensive miracle cure ... but I'm guessing I'm not that lucky!
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  28. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    PP Only helped for couple of hours , but left the fish with burns to their mouths all brown , wont recommend doing it far to harsh has actually perked a few fish up but the stress of such a treatment i think has caused white round lumps to form on one of my fish tail and they have come up very quickly . similar to carp pox surely too warm 18c for carp pox.
    Knew there was something else I was going to answer!!! When I was researching PP to use it the first time last year, I found this particular article very helpful. It's a re-post of an old website, but lots of interesting info in it, in particular:

    My fish all have brown spots!

    Yes, this is normal. Let me guess where those stains are:
    The lower lip.
    The front of the pectoral fins.
    The front of the dorsal fin.
    An area the size of a coin just before the tail fin.
    A small area in the nostrils.
    The under arm area at the beginning of the breast fins.
    The beginning and the end of the sensing wires.

    These are the areas where parasites have been. The PP has oxidized the scum and stained them brown. Remember these areas well if you check for parasites the rest of the year, these areas are "bug" magnets. The brown spots will soon disappear, usually within 24 hours, and even faster when hydrogen peroxide is added to the water.


    You may well find that the staining is just the result of the PP on the 'organic' load on the fish. The brown staining described in this article is exactly what has happened to my fish when dosed with PP, and it all went away within a few days if I hadn't neutralised the PP with ST (I don't use peroxide as it stays in the water for days), so I don't think it's anything to worry about. As for the lumps on the tail - any chance of a photo? From what I've seen of Carp pox on my littl'uns, it can come up and down very fast, literally overnight, and can appear in temps at 18C+, so perhaps this is just pox in reaction to a stressed immune system?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  30. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Just back in from today's lettuce feeding frenzy and thought I'd share some pics of how improved the Shiro's scales and the Showa's tail are:

    Shiro Healing.JPG
    Showa Tail Split Healing.JPG

    I think that's some pretty remarkable healing. I've had split fins before, and they've taken months and months to improve even fractionally, and that's when I had my pond salted to 0.89% in conjunction with Flukesolve for the skin flukes last year. I'm amazed at this rapid repair and can't help but feel the Vitalize and Enzyme must have played a role given how stressed these fish have been. Of course, I'd like to think it's just adding orange and garlic to their feed as that'd be a wonderfully inexpensive miracle cure ... but I'm guessing I'm not that lucky!
    Wow thats amazing recovery in such a short time .

    just tested nitrate ive completely disregarded this as a potential issue, my bad.

    looks like 30-40 PPM

    ive just realised that with my pond not receiving sunshine , no plants and my filtration setup to tackle nitrite and ammonia which are both zero

    would this give the symptoms ive been reporting?

    salt , yes 12 gallon bucket and and 2 litres of salt and fully disolve in water before adding gradually and equally over the pond,, i avoid where the fish are.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  32. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Knew there was something else I was going to answer!!! When I was researching PP to use it the first time last year, I found this particular article very helpful. It's a re-post of an old website, but lots of interesting info in it, in particular:

    My fish all have brown spots!

    Yes, this is normal. Let me guess where those stains are:
    The lower lip.
    The front of the pectoral fins.
    The front of the dorsal fin.
    An area the size of a coin just before the tail fin.
    A small area in the nostrils.
    The under arm area at the beginning of the breast fins.
    The beginning and the end of the sensing wires.

    These are the areas where parasites have been. The PP has oxidized the scum and stained them brown. Remember these areas well if you check for parasites the rest of the year, these areas are "bug" magnets. The brown spots will soon disappear, usually within 24 hours, and even faster when hydrogen peroxide is added to the water.


    You may well find that the staining is just the result of the PP on the 'organic' load on the fish. The brown staining described in this article is exactly what has happened to my fish when dosed with PP, and it all went away within a few days if I hadn't neutralised the PP with ST (I don't use peroxide as it stays in the water for days), so I don't think it's anything to worry about. As for the lumps on the tail - any chance of a photo? From what I've seen of Carp pox on my littl'uns, it can come up and down very fast, literally overnight, and can appear in temps at 18C+, so perhaps this is just pox in reaction to a stressed immune system?
    thanks mate, it sounds like carp pox then , never knew you could get them in warm water conditions ,

    pp staining is now cleared up no problems .

    will try get a picture later.

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  34. #38
    [QUOTE=Koiz;339486]

    need to stop feeding now ffs dont want to do a water change means dumping loads of salt too...
    trickle top up has been on since this morning approx 2% clean water gone in so far raising the level up as my drum filter is consuming the pond water to clean .

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  36. #39
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Just back in from today's lettuce feeding frenzy and thought I'd share some pics of how improved the Shiro's scales and the Showa's tail are:

    Shiro Healing.JPG
    Showa Tail Split Healing.JPG

    I think that's some pretty remarkable healing. I've had split fins before, and they've taken months and months to improve even fractionally, and that's when I had my pond salted to 0.89% in conjunction with Flukesolve for the skin flukes last year. I'm amazed at this rapid repair and can't help but feel the Vitalize and Enzyme must have played a role given how stressed these fish have been. Of course, I'd like to think it's just adding orange and garlic to their feed as that'd be a wonderfully inexpensive miracle cure ... but I'm guessing I'm not that lucky!
    Great recoveries in both fish, well done, your water must be perfect and their immune systems on top form.

    I have one with a split tail like that, will be really pleased if it heals as quickly as yours has.

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  38. #40
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    Knew there was something else I was going to answer!!! When I was researching PP to use it the first time last year, I found this particular article very helpful. It's a re-post of an old website, but lots of interesting info in it, in particular:

    My fish all have brown spots!

    Yes, this is normal. Let me guess where those stains are:
    The lower lip.
    The front of the pectoral fins.
    The front of the dorsal fin.
    An area the size of a coin just before the tail fin.
    A small area in the nostrils.
    The under arm area at the beginning of the breast fins.
    The beginning and the end of the sensing wires.

    These are the areas where parasites have been. The PP has oxidized the scum and stained them brown. Remember these areas well if you check for parasites the rest of the year, these areas are "bug" magnets. The brown spots will soon disappear, usually within 24 hours, and even faster when hydrogen peroxide is added to the water.


    You may well find that the staining is just the result of the PP on the 'organic' load on the fish. The brown staining described in this article is exactly what has happened to my fish when dosed with PP, and it all went away within a few days if I hadn't neutralised the PP with ST (I don't use peroxide as it stays in the water for days), so I don't think it's anything to worry about. As for the lumps on the tail - any chance of a photo? From what I've seen of Carp pox on my littl'uns, it can come up and down very fast, literally overnight, and can appear in temps at 18C+, so perhaps this is just pox in reaction to a stressed immune system?
    Exactly the same with my lot.

    Then the same stains came back after the Alparex, inside the lower lip being the most prominent staining.

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