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Thread: Scrape after treatment with pp!
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06-07-2020, 02:28 PM #41
Last edited by RS2OOO; 06-07-2020 at 02:54 PM.
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06-07-2020, 02:57 PM #42
After using ct all the pond parameters are the same and the koi seem un affected.
is it just the fact that it is more toxic in softer water.
my parameters at the time we’re ph 8, Kh 3, and Gh 4.
Also if they say to reduce the level will this be just as effective against parasites or bacteria.
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06-07-2020, 04:32 PM #43
That's right Sim, CT doesn't affect parameters but CT is affected by parameters making it more toxic to Koi in soft water.
This means you can use a considerably higher dose in hard water.
What I cannot find out is whether CT in soft water is less effective than it is in hard water due to the lower maximum dose you can administer.
i.e it is more toxic to koi in soft water, but is it also more toxic to parasites and bacterial infections? Logically you might think it is, but I'm not sure.
I have tried high doses of CT, I mean, very high doses, and my Koi were fine. In fact they showed far less outward stress than they show when treating with FMG. At the high dose I tried it will wipe out gill flukes, skin flukes, costia, chilodonella, external bacterial infections and bacterial gill disease. In my eyes that makes it a powerful tool in the box, but Duncan tends to rate it 3rd or 4th on his list of preferred treatments for any of the above ailments, so I might be missing something somewhere.
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06-07-2020, 05:22 PM #44
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06-07-2020, 05:27 PM #45
That’s what I really wanted to now if more toxic to koi then is it just as toxic to parasites and bacteria.
i just put a normal dose in so in theory it should have been stronger.
how much stronger were your higher doses if you don’t mind me asking?
thanks for your thoughts, sort of confirms what I thought.
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06-07-2020, 05:48 PM #46
I did a lot of reading first and a couple of experiments before administering the high CT dose on my koi. I also spoke at length with Des Harris who told me Duncan users even higher doses!
I dosed at 18 grams per 1000 litres which is around 85 grams per 1000 gallons or 8.5 grams per 100 gallons. I used nearly a kilo over 3 days!
The Koi sailed through it with no obvious physical symptoms whatsoever except a reduction in appetite for 4-5 days.
At time of treatment pH was 8.2, GH was 15. This dose would kill your fish at pH of 7 and soft water.
By end of treatment red patches had gone from fish, carp pox looked visibly reduced, fish colours looked more vibrant, raised scales had gone down and all fish scraped clean of parasites.
If I'm in a future situation where I really can't identify a specific cause of fish being unwell, or there are multiple issues in the pond like flukes, costia and possibly bacterial gill infections, then I wouldn't hesitate to do the same again. Within a couple of days of the last dose it was like having a different pond of koi.
Some people would say not to share any of the above on a forum as it could be lethal, so I'm just sharing it as my experience and not a recommendation.
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06-07-2020, 05:58 PM #47
Thanks for the insight, It helps to know how far it can be pushed a specially With the water being softer.
If it killed parasites quickly you could i guess dip the koi as that would be safer option you could return it to the pond, or even a combination with a lesser dose to the pond
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06-07-2020, 08:00 PM #48
There is information around to achieving parasite removal using strong 4 hour CT dips. However some of those dips are using dosages smaller than what I treated my whole pond with.
So unless the fish are on last legs and may not survive a long term bath I don't see the point of the dip because it won't reduce bacterial levels or free swimming parasites in the pond. And if there was a bad reaction to CT in the pond you can neutralise it with ST in the same way as you would with PP.
But again, I'm not an expert in these things, I just do a bit of reading and try stuff out. I currently have a full dose of CT in the kids Intex pool and the kids have been fine. They look cleaner than usual if anything haha. (Don't try that with your kids lol). The pool went green when we ran out of chlorine tablets so I experimented with CT. It was back crystal clear within 48 hours.
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06-07-2020, 09:10 PM #49
Interesting reading that RS, definitely good to know
A few of my fish don’t look happynever seen them act like it before, clamped fins/head down floating. Did any of yours do that? Not sure what to do or how long I leave them like it anyone know how long the Fluke M takes to get rid of the fluke?
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07-07-2020, 03:54 PM #50
Same as RS. I went above dose for flukes
And costia. For 5000 gallon pond. I treated
For 6000 gallons. 1st and 2nd treatment for costia normal treatment did nt work.
As per fmg instructions.
But it worked when I went to 6000 gallons
On treating instead of 5000 gallons.
As RS has quoted. Not to be recommended. At your own risk. In the end I decided to. Because it was not working with normal dose. My fish where fine all the way through it.
Fred
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07-07-2020, 09:15 PM #51
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07-07-2020, 10:08 PM #52
What type of flukes did you see on the scrapes?
For flukes just dose as per the instructions on the packet.
If you have gill flukes administer a 2nd dose 6 or 7 days later based on current summer temps so you can capture any hatching flukes.
Never used fluke m, but most fluke treatments have 1 of 3 main active ingredients.
I would scrape the koi again after treatment as flukes can be stubborn.
Then, if clear of flukes keep an eye on them and scrape again after another week if you suspect something isn't right as it seems to be common to get outbreaks of different parasites after treating for flukes.
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07-07-2020, 11:30 PM #53
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08-07-2020, 12:19 AM #54
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08-07-2020, 05:50 AM #55
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08-07-2020, 05:57 AM #56
I agree with RS. Pointless if your treating again. I treat twice regardless if askin or gill flukes. That's just me though.
Just in case there is gill flukes as well. And I have missed it on the scope. Jumping and the odd flash is normal when treating
Fred
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08-07-2020, 08:02 AM #57
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08-07-2020, 08:06 AM #58
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08-07-2020, 06:23 PM #59
I personally don't do CT before the 2nd treatment for a couple of reasons.
1) Unknown if there could be a reaction with the unspent fluke treatment already in the pond,
2)If the first treatment is doing its job then the fish won't have any need to over produce mucus so it should still be relatively thinned out from the previous CT dose.
I know some people do it without any issues.
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08-07-2020, 09:52 PM #60
Every day feeding container?
Good shout, I'll have a look at Takazumi :)