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  1. #1

    Dropsy slowly killing all my fish

    Hi,

    I am gradually losing koi to dropsy and would be grateful for some help to address the problem.

    Pond details:
    2400 litre above ground sleeper pond ( approx 1.2mx 2.4m x1 m deep) almost a year old
    Filtered with a pump fed pontec 1500 which is cleaned every week with a 10% water change through a decholrinator
    Initially had 7 koi (now 5 and soon to be 4) and they are currently about 25cm and around 2 years old
    I have had a slight blanket weed problem and treated with Aqua clear Blanket weed remover last week
    Current water readings today from drop test:

    NH3 = 0
    NO2 = unknown*
    NO3 = 0
    pH = 7.6
    Hardness = approx 300ppm

    * unfortunately the nitrate bottle leaked everywhere whilst in storage and so there is none left to test this. I will get a new kit in the next few days

    Symptoms:

    Fish were doing fine until January when I noticed the largest koi (A) was hardly moving. Closer inspection showed pop out eyes.
    He remained unchanged for several weeks and as the water warmed up the others started feeding but he was never interested
    As time progress he started to develop slight pine cone to his fins. I gave him a salt bath treatment out of desperation but that made no difference. Pine got worse and he started to develop a sore/ulcer near the gills. He eventually died around the middle of April

    Whilst this was happening Koi B started to lose interest in food around the middle of March. A few days later developed the same bulging eyes - again salt bath with no change. He died before koi A - probably around 2-3 weeks after first noticing a problem.

    Since Koi A died the remaining fish have been fine - feeding eagerly and growing. The only issue was the blanket weed but apart from that everything was ticking over nicely. 2 days ago I noticed koi C was not feeding. The next day he was sitting on his own in the corner. and today I noticed the same bulging eyes and a slight pine cone effect to the fins. He is obviously heading the same way as the others. Other koi look fine

    Questions:
    1) Is there any way I can save Koi C?

    2) Can I prevent the remaining fish succumbing?

    3) Are koi normally this much of a ball ache to keep/maintain? This pond was basically a trial to see what it is like and I have plans to build a 4000 gallon pond with drum filter assuming the initial pond was a success. I plan to break ground on the new pond in the next few weeks but am now having second thoughts if the fish are just going to die every few months. I have kept other cold water fish (non koi) in ponds and tanks for years without any issues like this so keen to gauge opinions on whether this is a one off or not. if this is a common/expected experience of keeping koi then we will probably just get another dog instead as the current dog is much less hassle than the fish!

    Thanks in advance



  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KevT's Avatar
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    Hi Fry

    I think you have a filter issue here, pressure filters aren't suitable for Koi and 500 gallon is very small for Koi. Pressure fileters don't have any media in for good bacteria and are only really a filter sponge in a bucket to catch suspended particles. If there is a UV present then this will clear the water, but this doesn't mean the water is good. The secret to Koi is filtration and then more filtration. You really can't have too much filtration and just because the water is clear it's not a sign of healthy water. I'm afraid that the fish are creating too many waste products and this is not being filtered / broken down. The fish were probably okay while the water temps were low and the feed load on the ponds filters was low, as the water gets warmer everything kicks off with the Koi feeding more and the the waste load getting higher. The filters will mature as the summer progresses and the bacteria will increase.

    You say that your new pond will have a drum filter, this is only a small part of the filter and will require bio filtration media, air, possibly a trickle filter and even a veg filter

    I have a settlement chamber / K1 media with air / bakki shower and a veg filter - my 7 fish were stocked two years ago at approx 1.5 inches and are now all 6-8 inches - these fish grow large and quickly under the right conditions.Two of the Koi developed pox over the winter, one of the tip of it's tail and the other on a peck fin, but that seems to be going now as the water temps increase. Nearly at the magic 20 degs for full Koi immune system and digestion function.

    This is a fascinating hobby - loads to learn - you will crack it just takes time, money and patience.

    KevT
    Last edited by KevT; 31-05-2020 at 02:44 PM.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Kev is right about the filters and pond volume which are potentially the underlying contributor to the problems.

    You can keep koi healthy in such a system but the maintenance is constant and margin for error small.

    Dropsy is a horrible disease, and a symptom of something wrong as opposed to being a disease in itself.

    Kidney failure (dropsy) can happen now and again to a single koi for no apparent reason, but to have more than one koi with dropsy indicates an issue with the system and it could be a bacterial infection which would require antibiotics.

    Where it isn't a bacterial infection it can be put back into remission through heat and salt, but knowing whether it's bacterial or not is impossible to tell on a forum, the only indications for a possible cause being your filtration and pond volume and I'd hazard a guess you also have a non box welded liner with the odd crease here and there that could fill up with detritus and bad bacteria.... Hence the indication of it possibly being bacterial and requiring antibiotics.

    Really difficult to say much more but clean filters, a clean pond with fully dechlorinated water and possibly salting the pond ( up to around 0.6%) and heating the water up to around 28C (in this weather you could bring temps up by covering pond in polycarbonate sheeting, but make sure you have plenty of oxygen going in) may be enough to prevent further incidents of dropsy.

    I don't know what facilities you have quarantine tank wise but that would be a better option to treat if it's available to you.

    I think that's the best I can come up with and beyond that you'd need a specialist to diagnose of it is bacterial and determine a course of treatment.

    Before taking what I've said as gospel wait and see what anyone else suggests.... All I know is once dropsy has set in its difficult to shift and only prevention to it escalating is to fix any possible underlying causes.



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    Last edited by RS2OOO; 31-05-2020 at 03:19 PM.

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  6. #4
    Many thanks for your response. Yes I see that the filtrations is not the best but I was hoping it would be OK while they were still little with a view to moving them to a bigger heavily filtered pond in the future. Also I think I overestimated them - they are all probably no bigger than 20cm.

    I check the water quality regularly and the parameters have been spot on since about August last year. Prior to this I think it was a combination of new pond/imature filter and overfeeding. Does this mean that water parameters are not a good indicator of bacterial load?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevT View Post

    The fish were probably okay while the water temps were low and the feed load on the ponds filters was low, as the water gets warmer everything kicks off with the Koi feeding more and the the waste load getting higher. The filters will mature as the summer progresses and the bacteria will increase.
    I thought this but the first fish developed problems sometime around the end of January at the latest.


    Quote Originally Posted by KevT View Post
    You say that your new pond will have a drum filter, this is only a small part of the filter and will require bio filtration media, air, possibly a trickle filter and even a veg filter
    Sorry, yes it will be a combined drum and bio chamber thing and I may look to put another bio chamber in later. Also with air stones and bottom drain.

    The current pump I have has some round plastic bits in it. I presumed this and the sponges provided some bio filtration but may be not? Is this different to this significantly different to the K1 stuff I expect to have in my new pond?

  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I'd hazard a guess you also have a non box welded liner with the odd crease here and there that could fill up with detritus and bad bacteria.... Hence the indication of it possibly being bacterial and requiring antibiotics.
    Yes you guessed right! Loads of folds - didn't realise this was a problem until now but it totally makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Really difficult to say much more but clean filters, a clean pond with fully dechlorinated water and possibly salting the pond ( up to around 0.6%) and heating the water up to around 28C (in this weather you could bring temps up by covering pond in polycarbonate sheeting, but make sure you have plenty of oxygen going in) may be enough to prevent further incidents of dropsy.
    Do you mean a 100% water change?

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I don't know what facilities you have quarantine tank wise but that would be a better option to treat if it's available to you.
    The only quarantine option I have at the moment is a trough of about 80 litres in size approx 40cm deep. Is this insufficient?

    Thanks!

  8. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KevT's Avatar
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    Hi Sankesoap

    This is very worrying.........if the water parameters are good i.e PH / Ammonia / Nitrate / KH then the filter must be keeping the water perfectly healthy.........this is good.

    Did you noticed if the fish have ever or have been flashing as this can be an indication something was wrong?

    Is there any detritus on the bottom of the pond as this is where things like flukes and white spot
    larvae can live and other nasties can live?

    It might be worth treating the whole pond as it's probably the best bet in the long run as all the fish could be subject to what ever has already killed some of the fish stock.

    Have you checked the test kits - they can give false readings / security if you think everything is fine - when there is actually an issue? Your local Koi centre might do a water check for you and a bacterial scrape, there will be a sale in it for them if you need to buy pond treatments. They will also be your best bet for future advise on a new pond build.

    Are you getting green water / blanket weed as this is a good sign that the filter bacteria is breaking the ammonia down and making plant food which is safe for the fish.

    Green water is good / we like to zap it with UV to keep the water clear to see the fish, but the fish love green water.

    Good luck - dogs develop a lot of health issues and this is why pet insurance is important - I suppose if you had Koi swimming around at a few grand each you would want to insure these as well

    Good luck - hope you get a solution before they all succumb to this issue

    KevT

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  10. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai bicolormoth's Avatar
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    hi SankeSoap, sorry to hear of your situation. you asked - ''3) Are koi normally this much of a ball ache to keep/maintain?'' , well, they can be, even when kept in a suitable ''koi pond'', but too often people try to keep koi in a pond only suitable for goldfish.

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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KevT View Post
    Hi Sankesoap

    This is very worrying.........if the water parameters are good i.e PH / Ammonia / Nitrate / KH then the filter must be keeping the water perfectly healthy.........this is good.

    Did you noticed if the fish have ever or have been flashing as this can be an indication something was wrong?

    Is there any detritus on the bottom of the pond as this is where things like flukes and white spot
    larvae can live and other nasties can live?

    It might be worth treating the whole pond as it's probably the best bet in the long run as all the fish could be subject to what ever has already killed some of the fish stock.

    Have you checked the test kits - they can give false readings / security if you think everything is fine - when there is actually an issue? Your local Koi centre might do a water check for you and a bacterial scrape, there will be a sale in it for them if you need to buy pond treatments. They will also be your best bet for future advise on a new pond build.

    Are you getting green water / blanket weed as this is a good sign that the filter bacteria is breaking the ammonia down and making plant food which is safe for the fish.

    Green water is good / we like to zap it with UV to keep the water clear to see the fish, but the fish love green water.

    KevT
    No the fish have not been flashing, I have kept other fish for years and feel confident of recognising unhealthy behaviour and the unaffected fish appear to be thriving.

    Yes there was loads of crap at the bottom of the pond which I have vacuumed out, this mainly started after treating for blanket weed.

    You suggest treating the whole pond? What would I treat it with?

    Local koi centre is currently closed for another 2 weeks. And I am not sure if they do scrapes/investigation.

    Yes loads of blanket weed (although responding to treatment) and the pond still has a light green tinge despite changing the UV lamp last week.

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  14. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Sim's Avatar
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    Hi
    have you managed to do any scraps on any of the koi ?
    i had a koi with dropsy last year, I did wonder if it was because it was a small koi going though the winter without any heating (I normally heat my pond)
    all the stress like temp fluctuations and parasites etc that bigger koi (two year olds and up) can deal with.

    i treated this koi with Acriflavin and salt, and if you can heat. It did survive and recover but quite often when they get dropsy there’s not much hope.

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  16. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sim View Post
    Hi
    have you managed to do any scraps on any of the koi ?
    i had a koi with dropsy last year, I did wonder if it was because it was a small koi going though the winter without any heating (I normally heat my pond)
    all the stress like temp fluctuations and parasites etc that bigger koi (two year olds and up) can deal with.

    i treated this koi with Acriflavin and salt, and if you can heat. It did survive and recover but quite often when they get dropsy there’s not much hope.
    I have not been able to do some scrapes. I was going to treat with some salt this morning but the fish was already dead. Interestingly the first koi took about 12 weeks to die and this one 3 days. Maybe the underlying cause was different and I just need to crack on and build the proper pond.

  17. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SankeSoap View Post
    Yes you guessed right! Loads of folds - didn't realise this was a problem until now but it totally makes sense.


    Do you mean a 100% water change?



    The only quarantine option I have at the moment is a trough of about 80 litres in size approx 40cm deep. Is this insufficient?

    Thanks!
    Hi,

    I don't think the 80 litre trough will be suitable really because its too small volume to confidently keep water parameters consistent.

    Not necessarily a 100% water change, but to try and hoover out the pond floor and clean everything as much as possible (except for the plastic bits in your filters as these do support the good bacteria that keeps your ammonia/nitrites down). Then replace that water with fresh dechlorinated water.

    As I mentioned before, Dropsy is a symptom of something else and I'm only edging towards a bacterial infection based on the evidence you've given, i.e folds in the liner, dirt in the bottom of the pond, small water volume, more than 1 fish with dropsy.

    Heat and Salt is in my opinion the only realistic way forward. Acriflavine is also an option as Sim suggested because it will reduce certain types of bacterial load.

    I think beyond that your options are limited with dropsy without specialist help.

    If its any consolation in 32 years of keeping fish I've lost more fish to Dropsy than anything else, even in immaculately clean systems. Funny thing is since moving house I've never had any cases of dropsy and am left wondering if the tap water contributed (it tasted disgusting that's for sure).

    There is some things you need to be aware of before adding salt to the pond:
    1) You can only remove it through water changes
    2) You need to be confident you've got no parasites in the pond because whilst salt can knock back some parasites, some parasite treatments can't be used when there's salt in the water so you'd have to completely change the water before adding other treatments in the future.

    Whether the current koi with dropsy survives or not is a really tough call. Some do, some don't, but more often than not they die if its bacterial infection unless that bacteria can be identified and the appropriate antibiotics intravenously administered. But by following the advice on here you can almost certainly prevent other koi from getting it.


    Looking to the future....
    Your proper Koi pond will have a bottom drain so you wont get this dirt build up in the pond.
    Your proper Koi pond will likely have a box welded liner or be fibreglassed so you wont have the bacterial issues you get with creased liners.
    Your proper Koi pond will have a proper gravity fed filter or drum, so the waste goes down the drain, whereas with your pressure filter the water is constantly in contact with rotting waste thus slowly poisoning the water.
    After becoming addicted and spending a good wad of money on a stunning Koi, you'll also spend £100 on a microscope for quick identification of any issues and fast treatment.... makes life a lot easier.

    So it doesn't have to be stressful or difficult, and having your Koi follow you every time you walk past the pond, and queuing up to hand feed is well worth the occasional grief (I say that half way through dosing my pond to treat Costia!).


    EDIT: Started putting this post together before your post above - Sorry to hear that the Koi has died. I would still recommend doing everything outlined above to prevent further occurrences.

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    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai bicolormoth's Avatar
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    SankeSoap. the causes of this condition maybe either Genetic, Bacterial or Environmentasl. best course of action would be to isolate your effected fish and treat with salt.( Epsom Salt - 1tspn/gallon)
    unless you decdide to use another treatmet such as Acriflavin / Melafix (anti-bacterial) as salt can render that inefective/ if you do manage to treat a fish and return it to the main pond, and the fish agains shows signs of this condition then it is most likely an environmental cause. if the cause is bacterial (environmental) which is causing the kidneys to fail then there is very little you can do as Bacterial kidney desease (Polysystic kidney desease) is pretty much untreatable and fatal.by the time the outward signs of ''Dropsy'' are visible in the fish then the underlying condition of PKD is in its very late stages.

    i would do a couple of things here.
    1. remove the pressure filter. and replace with something suitable for a koi pond.
    2. treat the whole pond with Acriflavin.

    DO NOT add any salt to your pond. - salt bath your fish seperately.

  20. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Sim's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear.

    if it was me I would still try to scrap a few of the remaining koi, and with hoovering the pond out and keeping it clean they can grow on a bit until you get a new pond built.

    I would also make up a small moving bed and put some k1 in (or whatever media you will be using on the new pond). Just run out of you pressure filter into it.
    This will build more bio for the pond now but also help the new pond as you can transfer it to the filter system.

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  22. #14
    Thanks for all your replies.

    I am just going to concentrate on keeping the current pond as clean as possible for now. I hope to have the new pond up and running in 10 weeks so hopefully I won't lose anymore in the meantime.

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai big h's Avatar
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    If you put your location somebody may be able to help

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  25. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by big h View Post
    If you put your location somebody may be able to help
    Teesside, North East UK

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