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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    FMG & PP Resistant Costia! What Treatment Now?

    Hi folks,

    I’m in need of urgent help again please. Following on from my fluke problems last year (as per this post) the fish came through winter fine but by March were starting to flash again. Scrapes showed the same skin flukes from last year – they had clearly never gone despite having treated 4 times with Flukesolve, and even with salt at 0.89%, I was not inclined to repeat this so after some helpful conversations with Kevin of Parkstone (who knows a thing or two about persistent flukes!), I decided to go the Lernex Pro route after a couple days of CT prep. I did two Lernex Pro treatments and this finally took care of the flukes.

    A few weeks later the fish started flashing again and scrapes showed Chilodonella and Costia. This was treated with FMG twice in 7 days which took care of the Chilodonella, but not the Costia. By now my baby Showa was very poorly so I isolated her in my 100L bowl as I was concerned that perhaps my pond volumes were not accurate and that was why the FMG had failed on the Costia. Whilst in 80L of water I tried further FMG using the products from Parkstone, and then tried Kockney Koi brand just to be sure it was not a chemical issue. Neither worked and the baby Showa declined more with sunken eyes and notched nose. In desperation I tried a salt dip which did perk her up but only for a short while, then Acriflavine & MG. Eventually I euthanized the poor thing as I couldn’t see her suffer any more. Post-mortem scrapes showed no decrease in costia whatsoever, even after being in AquaSed for 30 mins - useful to know if you are worried that sedating a koi to scrape for costia will result in a false negative .

    By this time I had followed advice to remove my remaining 9 fish into an Intex pool to treat in a known volume of water and to bomb my pond with caustic soda and bleach. Unable to get hold of those chemicals in the lockdown, I resorted to using 20ppm PP for two days and threw in all my equipment too.

    Whilst in the Intex my koi have been treated with the Kockney Koi FMG - again with no success. I then resorted to 2ppm PP, 3 times. This seemed to help and I then gave my fish a breather in AquaSouce Vitalize and Enzyme for 10 days, during which my Shiro’s red streaked skin mostly resolved, though I still have some red streaked fins on my remaining Showa and the fins of my baby Ochiba are looked ragged on the edges, possibly from so many chemicals?

    Yesterday I scraped my Shiro again, only to find costia still, though in small numbers. I repeated the PP yesterday at a slightly higher doses of 4mg / 1,680L for 8 hours. I have just scraped again and the Costia is still there – in fact, I could see more on the scrape today than I did yesterday.

    To say I am at my wits end is an understatement. I can’t keep repeating PP when it is obviously not working as well as I thought it was. The PP I have used is from Proton Scientific and is supposedly 99% pure, but could this be the problem? I used it last year for Trich and it worked a treat. Should I try Kusuri PP? Should I try PP dips rather than whole pond treatments, but at what dose? Salt dip didn't work at all for the baby Showa, but perhaps she was just too riddled by these hideous little parasites.

    Many have talked about Alparex, but I’ve been warned that this can wipe out ponds of fish despite having good KH and GH, and my own experiment with the Acriflavine and MG on the baby Showa showed no signs of success, though it was not in it for many hours before I had to euthanise.

    This is the link to my folder of Scape Videos should anyone wish to take a look. There are some beautiful shots of the gill biopsies I did of my baby Showa - even in death that fish was very pretty. I have spoken with Paula Reynolds who confirmed it is definitely Costia on my scrapes but could not offer any further advice unless I took a fish to her.

    My koi are still in the Intex pool as I have now stripped out my whole filtration system, so my pond will not be usable again for at least two more weeks at the earliest. On the whole they are OK - the costia are not taking their toll on them like they did the baby Showa - yet. I don’t see them flashing, but then I’m not spending much time watching them as I’m dealing with sorting out the pond and sitting in Addenbrookes eye hospital for 5 hours at a time for my second PVD and suspected detached retina (hence my scrape vids are getting progressively worse as I'm struggling to see!). I am doing daily water changes so params are OK, and occasionally feeding to try to keep their immunity intact, but I do not have a proper quarantine facility and I am not in a position to set one up. After everything I have spent on this pond, hubs would threaten divorce if I mentioned that. I really need to get on top of this situation before I have to go in for another eye operation as that'll put me out of action for weeks.

    I have pasted below all the treatments I have done this year so far so you can see my doses per water volumes, temps etc, in case I have done something wrong and just can't see it for myself. It does not make for pleasant reading and I feel so sorry for my fish having been put through all this. I thought my prazi-resistant flukes were bad enough, but this is next level stuff and I’m now out of ideas. I genuinely do not know what to do next and would be very grateful for advice or shared experience. Has anyone else encountered Costia that just will not die?

    Pond Treatments To 17.05.20.jpg


    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  3. #2
    Sorry for your predicament but I'm not much help as I've never had to deal with Costia.. Hopefully someone will pop in and be some help to your problem..

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  5. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    The only other thing I know of is heat. If chemicals treating don t work.
    Costia of what I have read. Cannot live above 28c. So heat ramping might work.
    It's a pain but that's a way. I would have done everything you have done.
    Sorry to hear of your problems. Breaks my heart to hear and read this story.
    Fred

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=freddyboy;331437]The only other thing I know of is heat. If chemicals treating don t work. Costia of what I have read. Cannot live above 28c. So heat ramping might work.

    Yes, I've read about heat ramping, but I don't have such facilities. I could bring my Ochiba indoors in my blue bowl and heat that with an aquarium heater as he is only 10", but it'll mean daily water changes which won't be ideal stress wise (for us both!), and of course doesn't help my other fish - the largest being about 75cm. Heating just isn't an option for them.

    I read with interest this post on Koiphen from 2004 regarding PP dips though the dosage isn't mentioned for fear of failure in the hands of novices: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ts-talk-Costia
    I'm at the stage where I'm willing to try this as I just can't bear the thought of losing any more koi without trying everything, but I need more guidance on doses and times.

    Does anyone have any insight into this?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RoyLittle0's Avatar
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    Have a look at this, I know I've seen it done before

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8SBdliwM0c
    4600 Gallon Concrete Block and Fiberglass
    2100 mm x 710 mm Infinity Window 32mm thick glass
    2 x Aerated Bottom Drains and Skimmer
    Filtreau HiFlow 30 Drum Filter
    Bio Chamber - 140 litres K1
    Bakki Shower - 30 KG Sakura Far Infrared Media
    2 x 18,000 lh pumps
    Heated from house boiler through a heat exchanger
    Idealseal MS290

    My Pond Build

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  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Great video but I'm not in a position to buy or run a heater like that. Even if I was able to individually heat my koi for a day or so each in doors in the bowl I've no where to put them afterwards without risking reinfection. If I waited to do this when my filter is rebuilt and the pond refilled and ready to take them back so that one by one they went from the Intex to bowl to pond, the complications of being able to bring down the heat to the outside temp so they were acclimatised to return would be very tricky on an individual basis and would take weeks for all 9 fish. However I try to think of a way of heat treating my fish it just doesn't work. And let's not forget the fun I'll have with new pond syndrome too!

    Can anyone share their experience of Alparex? Has that worked on Costia when all else failed?

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    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    In the absence of any alternative advice, I have just completed two days of Colombo Alparex. I dosed at 42ml for a 1,680L water volume, and because the koi coped well the first day and my KH was at 9, PH at 8, and temps were dropping, I dosed at 44ml the 2nd day.

    I am crying as I type this. I have just scraped my Shiro and I still have costia. A lot of it. I’ve uploaded the latest scrape for anyone interested.

    I’m beaten. I have had another two sleepless nights, out checking them every few hours. My water params are now bad (Ammonia 0.5, Nitrite 1, Nitrate 40) and my little Ochiba is constantly lunking so I need to do a big water change.

    I can honestly say, if I had known what was involved in keeping koi in 2017, I would never have expanded the pond that came with my house when I refurbished my garden, but done away with it all together and been content with my indoor aquarium. I think it's one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made.

    So that’s it for me. I can’t do any more. I've wasted hundreds of pounds on chemicals since June, I’ve stripped my pond, I’ve bought a new filter system, I’ve made myself ill with the stress of it, and almost ruined my marriage over it. If my pond wasn’t an integral part of my garden design I’d be looking to rehome the fish and be done with koi keeping. But I can’t just 'fill a hole in the ground', so I have no choice but to keep the pond and make the best of it. Unless someone can offer me advice on what I can do next, I plan to do a huge water change in the Intex now, leave the fish in Vitalize and Enzyme till my pond is running again, then put them back and just leave them to fend for themselves in the hope they’ll find an equilibrium with the parasites. What else can I possibly do?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  13. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    In the absence of any alternative advice, I have just completed two days of Colombo Alparex. I dosed at 42ml for a 1,680L water volume, and because the koi coped well the first day and my KH was at 9, PH at 8, and temps were dropping, I dosed at 44ml the 2nd day.

    I am crying as I type this. I have just scraped my Shiro and I still have costia. A lot of it. I’ve uploaded the latest scrape for anyone interested.

    I’m beaten. I have had another two sleepless nights, out checking them every few hours. My water params are now bad (Ammonia 0.5, Nitrite 1, Nitrate 40) and my little Ochiba is constantly lunking so I need to do a big water change.

    I can honestly say, if I had known what was involved in keeping koi in 2017, I would never have expanded the pond that came with my house when I refurbished my garden, but done away with it all together and been content with my indoor aquarium. I think it's one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made.

    So that’s it for me. I can’t do any more. I've wasted hundreds of pounds on chemicals since June, I’ve stripped my pond, I’ve bought a new filter system, I’ve made myself ill with the stress of it, and almost ruined my marriage over it. If my pond wasn’t an integral part of my garden design I’d be looking to rehome the fish and be done with koi keeping. But I can’t just 'fill a hole in the ground', so I have no choice but to keep the pond and make the best of it. Unless someone can offer me advice on what I can do next, I plan to do a huge water change in the Intex now, leave the fish in Vitalize and Enzyme till my pond is running again, then put them back and just leave them to fend for themselves in the hope they’ll find an equilibrium with the parasites. What else can I possibly do?
    Sorry to hear your having a hard time mate.
    Don t get stressed mate I have just googled this. You could try.
    Copied and pasted.
    https://sacramentokoi.com/parasites/costia/

    To treat ponds up to 1500 gallons.*Measure out enough Malachite Green & Formalin to treat the whole pond at a dosage of 10 ml per 100 gallons. Drain 50% of the water out of the pond and then add the Malachite Green & Formalin to the pond. After exactly 2 hours, refill the pond as fast as possible to its normal level. You must be able to refill the pond within 45 minutes or you risk the chance of burning the fishes gills. Perform this treatment 3 days in a row. If you have costia we recommend treating one more time on day 5. If the pond is being refilled with city water remember to add dechlorinator to the water to remove any chlorine in the new water. This technique is very effective because the parasites are exposed to twice the dose of medication for 2 hours which is usually enough to kill them.

    To treat ponds over 1500 gallons.*The above treatment cannot usually be performed on ponds over 1500 gallons because it takes too long to refill the larger ponds. In this case we recommend performing a 25% water change before each treatment. After the pond is refilled to its normal level, add the Malachite Green & Formalin at a dose of 10 ml per 100 gallons. Treat the pond 3 days in a row. If you have costia we recommend treating one more time on day 5. If the pond is being refilled with city water remember to add dechlorinator to the water to remove any chlorine in the new water.
    Tell me what you think hope it may help you mate. I reckon the quickest way to fill most of it is fill a large holding vat. With fresh water. And pump that into the pond. Alot quicker then garden hose. For diluting and filling mate.
    Fred


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    Last edited by freddyboy; 23-05-2020 at 03:17 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Hi Fred,

    Thanks for this idea. It does seem an option... but... is that US gallons they are referring to (I guess so because it's in the US), and what strength of F & MG are they using? Is it the 38% and 2%, or 30% and 1%, or a ready mix?!! Sacramento Koi don't appear to sell any FMG so I can't even go by a product they promote.

    Because my fish are in the Intex which is only 1,680L, I could possibly do this, but to be honest, that would be a very small amount of water for my 9 fish to be in for 2 hours, though if it cures them it's probably worth a shot.

    So looking at this logically, if I dose for 1,680L in just 840L, I would need to fill back up to 1,680L at a flow rate of 18.6L / Min. I'd never achieve that. The best I could manage would be using two hoses at around 7LpM each which would take about 60 mins. I guess I'd have to cut down the 2 hour period to 1hr 45mins to account for that. If I was treating the pond, I could, as you say, sump pump water from the Intex into the pond, but I'm not in a position to do that, plus the Intex wouldn't hold enough water, so it would have to be the hose route.

    Do you have any idea what strength FMG they are referring to? Has anyone tried this protocol and can share their dosing strategy and experience?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  17. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion anne's Avatar
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    That's such a sad story to read...…. they should be a joy to look after but its an absolute nightmare for you
    what a shame.

    IS THERE ANYBODY ON HERE THAT COULD GO AROUND TO CAMBS AND GIVE KOIZ
    A HELPING HAND .........….PRITTY PLEASE...…….

    KEEPING A SAFE DISTANCE OF COURSE...……….

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Koiz,

    Sorry it's taken almost a week to fully read your opening post and view the videos, just so busy all the time and put this thread on the "read at the weekend" list obviously not realising I may be able to help... or not!

    Looked through your videos and I really hope I'm not wrong because I always have the same things on my scrapes.... But I don't think its costia.

    I have always thought those moving things are cell streams and I hope they are because every scrape I do has them and I ignore them!

    Very difficult to see at x400 directly through the scope but once you add the camera it seems to zoom in a little more and they are very apparent on the screen, looking exactly like yours does bobbling around and not really going anywhere.

    Whereas in comparison, Costia like to make progress across the screen at speed like in these videos which are at just 100x magnification:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_oXpqYPONM





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESp45gLE1Aw





    Unless someone says otherwise with certainty, I don't think you're Koi are carrying any parasites.

    If they are.... then mine are too!
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 23-05-2020 at 07:58 PM.

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  21. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne View Post
    That's such a sad story to read...…. they should be a joy to look after but its an absolute nightmare for you
    what a shame.
    Hi Anne, You could not be more right - it really does feel like I'm in a nightmare.

    I've barely slept more than 3 hours at a time since this has been going on I'm so stressed over it and out checking on them. I know it sounds ridiculous, but my fish (and my cats for that matter), are my family unit as I do not have children, and I cannot bear to see them suffering. My health has kept me predominately housebound for the last ten years - so COVID lockdown has been business as usual for me! My garden is my sanctuary away from the walls, and my pond was the place I went for company and pleasure - but now it is nothing but misery over and over again. I cannot tell you how sick I felt when I went to scrape my Shiro today - I was literally shaking when I was preparing my microscope and slides. When I saw the Costia again I just broke down. I honestly could not believe they were still thriving after everything I tried.

    My fish hand feed, and nuzzle and suckle my arms whenever I clean their windows, so I am immensely attached to them, not to mention that 3 of the oldest ones are from my brother's pond so have great sentimental value also. I wish I could detach from my feelings about them, but I'm just not made that way. Life would be a lot easier if I was!
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Hi Koiz,

    Sorry it's taken almost a week to fully read your opening post and view the videos, just so busy all the time and put this thread on the "read at the weekend" list obviously not realising I may be able to help... or not!
    Looked through your videos and I really hope I'm not wrong because I always have the same things on my scrapes.... But I don't think its costia.
    Unless someone says otherwise with certainty, I don't think you're Koi are carrying any parasites.
    If they are.... then mine are too!
    Hi RS - bless you for taking the time to read and reply. You are not alone in asking this question - it's exactly what I've asked all the way through too! But I've been assured by several people, including Paula Reynolds to whom I sent the same link as I've posted above, and she also confirmed Costia. I was doubting the diagnosis because my 'costia' never seem to be moving all over the screen like you see on other costia videos - rather they just seem to vibrate in a small area, and they rarely look comma shaped - more round. I'd be very interested to hear what other folk think. The latest video (in No.10 folder dated today) shows clearly in the first few seconds what I am seeing time and time again, so hopefully other people may have a moment to take a look and comment.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    RS - I'd be very interested in what you think of these two videos (which you may already have seen!). I thought these were Chilodonella, but I'd be happy to be corrected...
    01 - https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ag9NuRDhoBlPhdskfMXIo9bvziIBsQ
    02 - https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ag9NuRDhoBlPhdsqThJHw1v4HfuLgg
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Koiz,

    I didn't see any in that video, only the things I think (thought) are cells at x400 or above (assuming that's the setting you were on, but if you're at x100 then ignore everything I've said).

    But in this video (not sure which video I viewed so hopefully this link will work) there are 3 or 4 things out of focus that zoom passed in the right half of the screen between 16 and 19 seconds, again at 24 seconds and another on the left half of the screen at 33 seconds. They could very well be costia.

    https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%...194476&o=OneUp


    EDIT: Not sure when this video was taken, hopefully its one from before you treated and they are now gone! This video is in reply to post 13.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 23-05-2020 at 08:49 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    RS - I'd be very interested in what you think of these two videos (which you may already have seen!). I thought these were Chilodonella, but I'd be happy to be corrected...
    01 - https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ag9NuRDhoBlPhdskfMXIo9bvziIBsQ
    02 - https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ag9NuRDhoBlPhdsqThJHw1v4HfuLgg
    I've never seen Chilo in real life, but comparing to other videos I'd say yes, they are.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I've looked through a lot more videos, but not all of them.

    Couldn't see anything on the Shiro scrapes that I thought was Costia (but if I'm wrong, it means my Koi are covered in them!).

    A couple of the baby Showa scrapes do have things zooming past in the background (like in the link I posted above, but not sure which Koi/scrape that link is for), mainly out of focus, and that looks like Costia, but I'm not certain.


    Probably need someone else to chime in who's seen costia plenty of times.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Hi Koiz,

    I didn't see any in that video, only the things I think (thought) are cells at x400 or above (assuming that's the setting you were on, but if you're at x100 then ignore everything I've said).
    But in this video (not sure which video I viewed so hopefully this link will work) there are 3 or 4 things out of focus that zoom passed in the right half of the screen between 16 and 19 seconds, again at 24 seconds and another on the left half of the screen at 33 seconds. They could very well be costia.
    https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%...194476&o=OneUp
    EDIT: Not sure when this video was taken, hopefully its one from before you treated and they are now gone! This video is in reply to post 13.
    That video was one of the series of scrapes from my baby Showa shortly after euthanasia on the 2nd May. It was taken at 400x and yes you are absolutely right - there are a few out of focus things that zip across the screen which much more resemble costia and the speed and manner in which they move. So, if the fast movers are costia, then they were still alive after FMG, Salt dip, Acriflavine and MG and then AquaSed. Pretty resilient

    Thanks for confirming the Chilo - at least I seem to have gotten that one right! Flukes and Trich are so easy to spot - the rest, not so much!

    Just out of interest, do my links allow you to see folders with names (ie dates scrapes taken) and videos with labels? Hard for me to judge because that's how it always shows up for me, but then it is my OneDrive so it may view differently via the share link!
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  32. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Yes, all the folders are there and labelled.

    It's only that I was right clicking and opening videos on new tabs so didn't know which video I was viewing.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    I cant get anything on my phone. Something about open an account.
    Fred

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