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  1. #1

    Fish rubing for unknown reasons

    Afternoon all,

    Anyone got any idea's why several of my koi are rubbing on my bottom drain?

    Im litterally pulling whats left of my hair out why they are doing this .

    water parameters are

    ammonia 0
    nitrite 0
    nitrate 2
    ph 8
    kh 12
    gh 16

    water temp 14.6c heated
    water is treated via 20" 3 pod (new) on trickle feed 15% change every week. it works out at

    ive scraped 5 koi so far and only found 2 dead tric or what looked like it but found nothing.

    ive treated as a precaution for flukes with Fluke solve pp'd the pond , and used FMG Two weeks ago

    only illnesses currently witnessed are carp pox on a few koi in the usual places although these are disappearing slowly with disappearing with warmer water conditions.

    thanks



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  3. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    Afternoon all,

    Anyone got any idea's why several of my koi are rubbing on my bottom drain?

    Im litterally pulling whats left of my hair out why they are doing this .

    water parameters are

    ammonia 0
    nitrite 0
    nitrate 2
    ph 8
    kh 12
    gh 16

    water temp 14.6c heated
    water is treated via 20" 3 pod (new) on trickle feed 15% change every week. it works out at

    ive scraped 5 koi so far and only found 2 dead tric or what looked like it but found nothing.

    ive treated as a precaution for flukes with Fluke solve pp'd the pond , and used FMG Two weeks ago

    only illnesses currently witnessed are carp pox on a few koi in the usual places although these are disappearing slowly with disappearing with warmer water conditions.

    thanks
    Mark you mentioned new 3 pod dechlorinator. Did you run the water through the pod not in the pond for 10 minutes. Before using it in the pond. Its recommended to run to drains first. Or garden not to pond. I once forgot to do this and my fish where bouncing of the walls.

    Also if my air alters they attack my dome on bottom drain. They don t like change.

    I use ST as well as 3 pod dechlorinator.
    As dechlorinator pods are not 100% reliable.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  5. #3
    Hi Freddy,

    Yes mate I ran it for at least 10 minutes prior

    its odd you mention this regarding air altering , they rub the bottom drain (spindrifter) when I turn the extra air off during feeding otherwise the food is pushed towards the wall skimmer then into the drum filter
    they are rubbing with their heads and gills only which I suspected gill flukes but not found anything and treated for this late last year after I found them under the micro scope.
    some just rest at the bottom and all not interested in food from midday but come evening they are literally trying to bite your fingers off.

    its just a complete change in behaviour from last year

    this is the one I brought
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-3-Stag...72.m2749.l2649

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  7. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    Hi Freddy,

    Yes mate I ran it for at least 10 minutes prior

    its odd you mention this regarding air altering , they rub the bottom drain (spindrifter) when I turn the extra air off during feeding otherwise the food is pushed towards the wall skimmer then into the drum filter
    they are rubbing with their heads and gills only which I suspected gill flukes but not found anything and treated for this late last year after I found them under the micro scope.
    some just rest at the bottom and all not interested in food from midday but come evening they are literally trying to bite your fingers off.

    its just a complete change in behaviour from last year

    this is the one I brought
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-3-Stag...72.m2749.l2649
    On the air side. I used to turn it off for feeds.
    So I put it on a timer. And that's when I noticed there difference in behaviour.

    So now I keep the air running permanently
    On my spindrifter.
    And I turn the skimmer off for feeds. And restart after feeds.
    They don t like change. Have you tested for chlorine in the pond. Using dpd4 tablets.

    All you can do I suppose is keep scraping
    If none of the above are affecting the koi.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  9. #5
    i doubt its chlorine as they were doing this before the 3 pod was installed. was using liquid kusuri dechlor before but will buy some DPD4 tablets to make sure the filter is working correctly flow rate is less than 1/4 of what they say is capable of .

    i'll have to devise a way of shuting off skimmer during feeding for when at work ect . skimmer is gravity feeding to drum with bottom drain.

    some of my koi are around 15 years old and they really dont like change everything has to be done with their body clock in mind otherwise they stay on the bottom while the rest feed. after 4pm onwards they start to feed.

    with scrapes im just mindful that it stresses them to do it and i have to use koi calm

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    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    Hi Mark, have you changed food or added a new fish of late? i have same issue so i turn the pumps down to there lowest settings before and after feeding else i get the food in the skimmer and the BD as the draw is quite efficient......just a thought i know you have treated but could it be that you treated when it was exceptionally early stage and now a few weeks on the lifecycle of whatever it was has re appeared as the temp has increased, maybe when you treated the water temp was a bit low and so the treatment was not so effective ?
    Last edited by smartin; 07-04-2020 at 09:00 PM.

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  13. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi Mark, have you changed food or added a new fish of late? i have same issue so i turn the pumps down to there lowest settings before and after feeding else i get the food in the skimmer and the BD as the draw is quite efficient.
    Hi Martin,

    yes the addition of NTLABS wheatgerm with garlic along with normal high protein cuttlebrook koi food.
    I have been turning flow down which does help but not completely . but still have to have airdome off yes 2 fish were added but ive checked both and fount nothing bar one tiny carp pox on dorsal fin.

    they are now rubbing on the floor , will have to scrape a few more fish tomorrow must be something parasite related that im missing. but the treatments ive done eradicate them all I think. so not sure

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  15. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Are your tests expired?

    When were the additions added?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  17. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    Are your tests expired?

    When were the additions added?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    brand new API Tests

    new fish added few weeks back now from a fellow member, cant find anything on them so im miffed to be honest.

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    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    Hi Martin,

    yes the addition of NTLABS wheatgerm with garlic along with normal high protein cuttlebrook koi food.
    I have been turning flow down which does help but not completely . but still have to have airdome off yes 2 fish were added but ive checked both and fount nothing bar one tiny carp pox on dorsal fin.

    they are now rubbing on the floor , will have to scrape a few more fish tomorrow must be something parasite related that im missing. but the treatments ive done eradicate them all I think. so not sure
    Hi Mark,
    it could be a chnage in their diet, why don't you stop feeding them that for a bit and see if they calm down, i expect your right though it does sound parasitic, hope you find it, can only think the colder water temp made the treatments ineffective ? be interesting what you find.... thanks Steve
    2200 gallons, infinity window, BD
    Evolve 4000 combi amalgam UV
    10k,20k AF pumps
    Skimmer trickle.

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    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    Sorry just to add, last year my fish were all good, i added a new fish from a well known dealer and within days mine started to flash badly, turned out to be white spot as my pond was 3 degree's colder it was enough to kick start the problem which the new fish brought in, because the new fish was being kept in warmer conditions there was no sign of white spot at all at the dealers facility.....or it was simply a big coincidence..
    2200 gallons, infinity window, BD
    Evolve 4000 combi amalgam UV
    10k,20k AF pumps
    Skimmer trickle.

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  23. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Well you seem experienced and have done all of the right things.

    You know your koi better than anyone so if you think there is an issue and itís not your water parameters then all you can do is continue to check for parasites.

    You mentioned you found flukes last year and treated for it, out of interest what was your treatment process? I have read flukes can be pretty hard to eradicate have you been heated to 14.6 all through winter?


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  25. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    Well you seem experienced and have done all of the right things.

    You know your koi better than anyone so if you think there is an issue and it’s not your water parameters then all you can do is continue to check for parasites.

    You mentioned you found flukes last year and treated for it, out of interest what was your treatment process? I have read flukes can be pretty hard to eradicate have you been heated to 14.6 all through winter?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    At that time my filters were struggling with new pond syndrome , plus wasnt heated back then until approx. 6 weeks ago pond was 8c back when I treated for fluke and had to treat for internal bacterial infections , tric and ulcers I focused on the latter first then treated for fluke with a product called Fluke solve works down to 3c 3000 gallons requires 55g treatment it kills them within 24 hours then 3 weeks later a second dose to kill the hatchlings in summer time I hear its best to reduce interval between second dose

    this stuff worked first time with no problems its same stuff I believe as worming tablets for pets but in powder form mixes very easily in cold water .

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  27. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    I used NT Flukesolve two doses and it did the trick.
    2200 gallons, infinity window, BD
    Evolve 4000 combi amalgam UV
    10k,20k AF pumps
    Skimmer trickle.

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  29. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    I used NT Flukesolve two doses and it did the trick.
    I use most NT LABS treatments they work , clover leaf products are garbage . I mix my own FMG works out like 4 times cheaper.

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  31. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Fish rubing for unknown reasons

    Just a hunch but if you treated at low temperature I believe eggs can lay dormant until spring time/ or you heat the pond up. There is a chance that you are reinfected from the original eggs hatching.

    If memory serves skin flukes are live bearers but gill flukes lay eggs

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  33. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Last year I used ct first to take the mucus
    Layer off the fish.
    Then i dosed with fluke m. And it worked.
    A lot of breeders and koi outlets do it this way. Ct first.
    As if a fish has got a thick coat of mucus
    The treatment may not get a fluke if it is under a layer of mucus. As it is protected by the mucus.
    Also last year a lot of people on here where getting a second hit of parasites. After treating.
    In my case 3 weeks later i got whitespot
    Some people got costia.
    Because the immune system of the koi was low after first treatment.
    Fred

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  35. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    What did you do about the internal bacterial infections? You mention that you treated the ulcers but what about the internal issues?

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  37. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Asagi View Post
    What did you do about the internal bacterial infections? You mention that you treated the ulcers but what about the internal issues?
    wasnt able to treat internal issue in time and lost a few Tosai took a few days from showing signs to death.

  38. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markini5 View Post
    wasnt able to treat internal issue in time and lost a few Tosai took a few days from showing signs to death.

    Sounds like you have had it really rough mate, nothing worse than seeing your fish in discomfort and not knowing what the hell it is, i hope things improve for you now that temps have increased etc hopefully re scraping and treating will stop your problems, keep us updated with progress Mark, cheers Steve.
    2200 gallons, infinity window, BD
    Evolve 4000 combi amalgam UV
    10k,20k AF pumps
    Skimmer trickle.

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