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  1. #1
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    Unhappy Are my fish dead or just sulking

    See my previous thread re: low Kh levels. Well I did the calculations, got the Soda Bicarb and treated the pond BUT.....stupidly as new to this, I put it all in over 2 days without testing in between. Monday and Tuesday
    The Kh levels have risen from 3 to 13 on Wednesday and I panicked and drained about 10% of the pond (it was late and dark) and refilled with water from tap which is Kh 3. The level today was Kh12 so hoping to reduce the levels further I have drained it again by about 20% and refilled with tap water planning to retest tomorrow. I am trying not to swing it too far back too fast as the fish must be really stressed by now. Ph is 8.

    One Koi has surfaced but is RIP and it was looking a bit poorly prior to all this so I put it down to increased stress. However I have not seen any other fish since the stupid error at the beginning of the week
    Are the fish dead and on the bottom? I expect dead fish to float to the top as any others that have died did that. The pessimist in me thinks its just a matter of time before they all float to the top dead.
    Can they just be sulking around the bottom and will come back up once the levels equalise? Previous to all this they were active and feeding about twice a week.
    Have I killed them all with this stupidity? Lesson well and truly learned.


    Last edited by Selina127; 06-02-2020 at 07:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Are my fish dead or just sulking

    I had a dead fish today Are my fish dead or just sulking he was on the bottom.. my death is likely to damage that occurred with my new pond syndrome


    I feel you have likely raised the KH way too fast. Did you use de chlorinated water?

    What was the ph fluctuation in the 2 days?

    How much SB did you add?

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    Last edited by Mikeh83; 06-02-2020 at 07:56 PM.

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  4. #3
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hi Selina, ok you are holding your hands up and made a mistake we all have done it.
    To answer your last question is if you have killed them all,don't know.

    Your tap is kh 3 which is fine, so what I would do is tricle in if you have an overflow,are you dechlorinating the water ?

    You need to and sodium thiosulphate is the cheap one to use.

    So a good tricle in is the way to go in my opinion.
    Any more advice please ask Selina.
    John

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  6. #4
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    Its a 30,000 litre outdoor pond, I have been using the hose pipe to refill it straight from the tap. it was running for 4 hours today and the pond isn't full yet. Ph hasn't changed.
    I have Tetra Aqua Safe to use once its full again, probably tomorrow. Not heard about Sodium Thiosulphate before.
    Not de-chlorinated the water but the pond was OK using aqua safe last time I drained it to clean it.

    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Hi Selina, ok you are holding your hands up and made a mistake we all have done it.
    To answer your last question is if you have killed them all,don't know.

    Your tap is kh 3 which is fine, so what I would do is tricle in if you have an overflow,are you dechlorinating the water ?

    You need to and sodium thiosulphate is the cheap one to use.

    So a good tricle in is the way to go in my opinion.
    Any more advice please ask Selina.

  7. #5
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    Thaks Mike, I know I raised it too fast, rooky mistake. I used the Koiphen calculator for a 30,000 litre pond to get the right amount of SB. The error was putting it all in too fast. Ph level hasn't changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    I had a dead fish today Are my fish dead or just sulking he was on the bottom.. my death is likely to damage that occurred with my new pond syndrome


    I feel you have likely raised the KH way too fast. Did you use de chlorinated water?

    What was the ph fluctuation in the 2 days?

    How much SB did you add?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selina127 View Post
    Thaks Mike, I know I raised it too fast, rooky mistake. I used the Koiphen calculator for a 30,000 litre pond to get the right amount of SB. The error was putting it all in too fast. Ph level hasn't changed.
    Dont know if koipen is different but I use manky sanke page he is amazing at water science

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    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    3 to 13 seems a big increase in a short space of time, What calculation did you use exactly? what is your length width and depth of your pond? can you not see the bottom of your pond to view your fish ? How many fish do you have and how old is your pond? Some info would be helpful, Steve
    Last edited by smartin; 07-02-2020 at 10:54 AM.

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  12. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selina127 View Post
    Thaks Mike, I know I raised it too fast, rooky mistake. I used the Koiphen calculator for a 30,000 litre pond to get the right amount of SB. The error was putting it all in too fast. Ph level hasn't changed.
    I’m no expert by any means but I thought by adding Sodium bicarbonate you would have in-turn lowered the PH.


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  13. #9
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    https://www.swelluk.com/pond-volume-calculator.html here's where I calculated the pond volume = 30,000 litres (6mx4mx1.25m).
    I can't see the bottom due to green water - its always varying hues of green.
    There are about 7 6in Koi, 3 shebunkin, and around 20 goldfish. No idea how old the pond is as we moved here in April 2019, but we drained it by 80% last year to clean it out. I have never had a pond or fish before.
    Having looked again I have dosed for 30,000 gallons not 30,000 litres so MASSIVELY overdosed the pond.
    Water test today is: Kh 11 and PH steady at 8. Temp 5 degrees. All other water tests are at zero so no ammonia or nitrate problems.
    I have added Tetra Aqua safe today as I am filling it with tap water via the hosepipe.
    Still not seen any fish.


    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    3 to 13 seems a big increase in a short space of time, What calculation did you use exactly? what is your length width and depth of your pond? can you not see the bottom of your pond to view your fish ? How many fish do you have and how old is your pond? Some info would be helpful, Steve

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  15. #10
    Selina,

    Adding sodium bicarbonate won't lower the pH, it will raise it but raising the KH and, therefore, raising the pH will make any ammonia more toxic. Except in the case of a pH crash when you must raise the pH to 7.0 as quickly as possible but no higher for a couple of days, the maximum recommended rate of change is one degree KH per day or 0.2 pH per day (I explain all this on the link below).

    R
    aising the KH or pH more quickly than that won't harm your koi but they will be stressed for a few days while they adjust to the new values as is explained in the article. Koi aren't worried by the value of KH unless it got massively high and took the pH way above 8.5 so don't worry, you haven't done them any harm except to P them off.

    The KH will come down slowly due to action in your biofilter so don't try to lower it with water changes, let it fall of its own accord until it's in the range 5°KH to 7°KH.

    When you say that all the other readings are zero, you only mentioned ammonia and nitrate so does that include the nitrite?

    This link to my article on how to safely recover from a pH crash also gives suitable information about raising the KH or pH in other cases where they are low but the pH hasn't actually crashed.
    http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/htm l/questions_answered.html#pHcrash

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  17. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Are my fish dead or just sulking

    There we go... no expert, I got it the wrong way Are my fish dead or just sulking
    SB can be used as a buffer to lower pH if it’s above 8.4 though but will not lower below this.. I think Are my fish dead or just sulking Are my fish dead or just sulking sorry for miss advice.


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    Last edited by Mikeh83; 07-02-2020 at 10:10 PM.

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  19. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    There you go Manky Sanke to the rescue, just have a good read on what he has said and his links, it will help you...… yes 30k gallons and not litres would explain why it was such a sharp rise in such a short space of time anyhow mate hopefully the rest of your fish will be ok and things will settle down, you say your water is always greenish ? do you have a lot of natural plants and overhead trees and bushes nearby ?? are you not filtering in any way?

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  21. #13
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    Hi Manky and thank you for the advice. I have read the article and I am reassured I have made a mistake but probably not a fatal one yet. Stupid to not notice calculator was gallons and not litres.
    Yes the nitrite level is zero. The Ph only rose from 7.5 to 8 and has remained at 8 all this week. Generally the readings are stable except for a regular slow reduction in KH - I didn't know th ebio filter will reduce it so I need to keep my eye on that more often.
    Not out of the woods yet but at least I can see daylight now you have put my mind at rest so thank you for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Selina,

    Adding sodium bicarbonate won't lower the pH, it will raise it but raising the KH and, therefore, raising the pH will make any ammonia more toxic. Except in the case of a pH crash when you must raise the pH to 7.0 as quickly as possible but no higher for a couple of days, the maximum recommended rate of change is one degree KH per day or 0.2 pH per day (I explain all this on the link below).

    R
    aising the KH or pH more quickly than that won't harm your koi but they will be stressed for a few days while they adjust to the new values as is explained in the article. Koi aren't worried by the value of KH unless it got massively high and took the pH way above 8.5 so don't worry, you haven't done them any harm except to P them off.

    The KH will come down slowly due to action in your biofilter so don't try to lower it with water changes, let it fall of its own accord until it's in the range 5°KH to 7°KH.

    When you say that all the other readings are zero, you only mentioned ammonia and nitrate so does that include the nitrite?

    This link to my article on how to safely recover from a pH crash also gives suitable information about raising the KH or pH in other cases where they are low but the pH hasn't actually crashed.
    http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/htm l/questions_answered.html#pHcrash

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  23. #14
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    Green water - there are no overhead plants or trees and its in full sun most of the day when its not cloudy or raining!
    Some floating plants but they are dormant now, 3 water lily in summer but nothing at the moment.
    Running 2 seperate filters and a waterfall, run them off twice a week to keep them clean. I washed the foams out in summer with pond water. 3 air bricks in the pond and 2 in the filter chamber. 3 UV lights.
    We used Algo-Rem over the summer when it got really bad but it didn't really help despite skimming off LOADS of algea after using it. I know we need lots of plants but in winter what are the options?

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  25. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selina127 View Post
    Green water - there are no overhead plants or trees and its in full sun most of the day when its not cloudy or raining!
    Some floating plants but they are dormant now, 3 water lily in summer but nothing at the moment.
    Running 2 seperate filters and a waterfall, run them off twice a week to keep them clean. I washed the foams out in summer with pond water. 3 air bricks in the pond and 2 in the filter chamber. 3 UV lights.
    We used Algo-Rem over the summer when it got really bad but it didn't really help despite skimming off LOADS of algea after using it. I know we need lots of plants but in winter what are the options?
    What size UV s are you running and what is your pond turn over ?

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  27. #16
    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    This is the condition of the pond last September, cloudy and greenish. Sorry not a great picture but you get the idea.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Selina127; 07-02-2020 at 10:36 PM.

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    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    I think they are all 75 watt UV and I have no idea on turn over as I don't know much about it or how to calculate it so can't answer that one. The waterfall runs 24 hrs.
    Remember I am a new to this and have heard about 'flow rates' but no idea why they are important or how to regulate it.
    Predicting really bad weather this weekend and my fish need a rest so I am not going to be adjusting anything for a few weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    What size UV s are you running and what is your pond turn over ?

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    Member Rank = Tosai Selina127's Avatar
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    I think they are all 75 watt UV and I have no idea on turn over as I don't know much about it or how to calculate it so can't answer that one. The waterfall runs 24 hrs.<br>Remember I am a new to this and have heard about 'flow rates' but no idea why they are important or how to regulate it.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>Predicting really bad weather this weekend and my fish need a rest so I am not going to be adjusting anything for a few weeks.&nbsp;<br><br>
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    What size UV s are you running and what is your pond turn over ? <br>
    <br>
    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    <br>
    <br>

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  33. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Am still learning belive me . Do you know what size pumps you have running ? How far they are pumping to filters/pond return . And height they are pumping ie how high is the waterfall

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Are my fish dead or just sulking

    Just a thought.. you mentioned that you inherited the pond back in April 2019. Have you changed the UV bulbs?

    I know that I was not aware they have a effective life of around 6 months. Even if the bulb is lit this does not mean it is doing the job is is designed for and likely the cause of the green water.


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