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  1. #1
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Simply had enough of Flukes !

    I'm out of ideas and right at this moment I'm spitting blood to be honest

    This afternoon I've scraped to see if I've managed to kill my Fluke infestation (I treated with Superverm on the 25/08) that I have had all year and once again my Koi are riddled. They've had both Body and Gill Flukes. So, here is a list of treatments I've used so far:

    4 x Fluke Solve all one week apart from one another - Failed
    2 x double dose Flubenol. Day one and day six - Failed
    1 x Lernex Pro. Day seven, partial water change and then used Superverm - Failed
    2 x Lernex Pro seven days apart - Failed
    1 x Superverm (new bottle) - Failed. Flukes still present in great numbers 24, 48 and 72 hours later.

    All the above is either CT or PP 24 hours before hand and 25% water changes in between each treatment. Drum is in bypass mode for any treatment and the UV's are disabled. Now I know people will be thinking that some of these doses are very close to one another and that's a lot of chemicals that have gone into the water (there's actually more, I just can't remember them all) but as we all know catching the egg cycle is very tricky with Gill Flukes and sometimes dropping the hammer is what's required. Superverm is meant to be able to kill the eggs. Well I have three totally unsuccessful attempts with it. Not only is it not killing the eggs, it's not killing any live Flukes either. I'm 21,000L so therefore the amount of Superverm I need is 46.2ml for my pond. Has anyone gone above the dose rate ? Duncan suggests a 6 month gap between Superverm treatments. If I wait that long, I'll have no Koi left at all.

    I have spoken in great depth to both Fiona McDonald and Paula Reynolds about this issue. Paula thinks I may have a new 'version' for a better word to use of Flukes that are immune to the treatments I've used. She heard of it coming in from Japan about 18 months ago but without actually getting some Flukes to her, she can't be certain.

    I'm now officially out of ideas and I'll admit, I've lost the will to live with it. I would never recommend to anyone to administer what I have in the time space I have and in all fairness, all of my customers ponds generally only need one pass with Fluke Solve or Lernex Pro. Me, well the Universe has other plans lol

    So short of removing all of my Koi into a temporary holding vat, treating them in there, putting every chemical I can think of into the pond including Caustic Soda, dropping it and letting it dry out for a week or so I can't think of anything else. I'm certain they are living in the waterfall area of the pond and not the filter or pipework.

    What would you do ?



  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Sim's Avatar
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    That sounds a bit drastic but should work.
    I had flukes earlier in the year and the first treatment didn't work so used ct to reduce the mucus layer then treated which did work.
    Maybe doing that with the koi and washing the pond out should get ride of them for good.

  3. #3
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythril View Post
    I'm out of ideas and right at this moment I'm spitting blood to be honest

    This afternoon I've scraped to see if I've managed to kill my Fluke infestation (I treated with Superverm on the 25/08) that I have had all year and once again my Koi are riddled. They've had both Body and Gill Flukes. So, here is a list of treatments I've used so far:

    4 x Fluke Solve all one week apart from one another - Failed
    2 x double dose Flubenol. Day one and day six - Failed
    1 x Lernex Pro. Day seven, partial water change and then used Superverm - Failed
    2 x Lernex Pro seven days apart - Failed
    1 x Superverm (new bottle) - Failed. Flukes still present in great numbers 24, 48 and 72 hours later.

    All the above is either CT or PP 24 hours before hand and 25% water changes in between each treatment. Drum is in bypass mode for any treatment and the UV's are disabled. Now I know people will be thinking that some of these doses are very close to one another and that's a lot of chemicals that have gone into the water (there's actually more, I just can't remember them all) but as we all know catching the egg cycle is very tricky with Gill Flukes and sometimes dropping the hammer is what's required. Superverm is meant to be able to kill the eggs. Well I have three totally unsuccessful attempts with it. Not only is it not killing the eggs, it's not killing any live Flukes either. I'm 21,000L so therefore the amount of Superverm I need is 46.2ml for my pond. Has anyone gone above the dose rate ? Duncan suggests a 6 month gap between Superverm treatments. If I wait that long, I'll have no Koi left at all.

    I have spoken in great depth to both Fiona McDonald and Paula Reynolds about this issue. Paula thinks I may have a new 'version' for a better word to use of Flukes that are immune to the treatments I've used. She heard of it coming in from Japan about 18 months ago but without actually getting some Flukes to her, she can't be certain.

    I'm now officially out of ideas and I'll admit, I've lost the will to live with it. I would never recommend to anyone to administer what I have in the time space I have and in all fairness, all of my customers ponds generally only need one pass with Fluke Solve or Lernex Pro. Me, well the Universe has other plans lol

    So short of removing all of my Koi into a temporary holding vat, treating them in there, putting every chemical I can think of into the pond including Caustic Soda, dropping it and letting it dry out for a week or so I can't think of anything else. I'm certain they are living in the waterfall area of the pond and not the filter or pipework.

    What would you do ?
    I would follow Paula's advice.

    If you have to sacrifice a live koi to her for examination (facility is bio secure fish only go one way) then its a pain that is longer term worth suffering?

    Sorry cant be more positive but Experts don't come better than Paula.

  4. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Hi Sim and thanks for your reply. Prior to every treatment I have either stripped the slim coat by using CT or PP. I always do this before treating for Flukes.

  5. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Hi Davej. I missed Paula today by a few minutes and my plan is to call her first thing and see what she suggests. Hopefully I'll not have to sacrifice one but if needs be...

  6. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Sim's Avatar
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    Hopefully it won't come to that, all sounds a little drastic.
    If they are coming from Japan what are they doing to kill them off?
    I think I would rather drain and treat like you were first suggesting than lose a fish if it could be avoided.

  7. #7
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythril View Post
    Hi Davej. I missed Paula today by a few minutes and my plan is to call her first thing and see what she suggests. Hopefully I'll not have to sacrifice one but if needs be...
    What I find rather strange is the mention of both Skin and Gill flukes. Find it hard to believe that both species could develop resistance at the same time... Its only a thought based on logic..

  8. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Sorry, I'll reword my original sentence. What I mean is I've had both Body and Gill Flukes this year. Gill are the Flukes Paula was referring to. The Body Flukes tend to get knocked back for a few weeks but always return. The Gill Flukes are always present.

    It leads me to believe something is bringing them in. Now I've checked the CCTV many times just in case a Heron has gotten past my security and nothing has been anywhere near my pond. There are a few Frogs that reside in or around my pond but Paula is fairly adamant that unless there is a pond nearby ie: a couple of meters away, the Frogs natural defense systems would kill off any parasite before it enters my pond. I do get the odd Wood Pigeon taking a drink out of the waterfall but even so, it's a long shot.

  9. #9
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai davec's Avatar
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    Simply had enough of Flukes !

    Iíve heard swallows can also introduce parasites to a pond not sure if itís true or not touch wood ive not been troubled with flukes this year I had trichodina though a parasite Iíve never had before tried pp purple for over 4 hours but they were still present in small numbers though after treating so I was told to try lernex which I did and it worked for me doesnít Duncan griffiths do a new treatment for fluke now think the fx1 he sells is for flukes and my friend who keeps discus uses it or the levamisole he also sells the levamisole he uses to treat intestinal worms in is discus at same time heís had success with both talk to Duncan about them itís worth a try


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  11. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Sorry to read this and really feel for you. I always dread this is the sort of thing that will happen to me. Took quite a few doses of Fluke Solve, normal Lernex and Fluke P earlier this year to clear my problem.... Although not 100% sure it worked as I'm the world's worst scraper.

    There's a lot of info online about immunity caused by frequent and repeated use of the same anthelmintics but in your case you'd have thought the switch to Superverm would have nailed them.

    Even if you do have to sacrifice a fish I'm not convinced you'd get a resolution as quickly as you'd want, but if you do go down that route and don't want to sacrifice any of your Koi you might consider buying a cheap sacrificial pondfiller and waiting for that to get infected, but even that's not a comfortable idea for most pet/koi lovers, myself included.

    Doubtful any of this will be of help at this stage, but here's a few web pages I saved when I was having trouble.... just might be something amongst them that gives a light bulb moment despite the fact they're aimed at farm animals:

    https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/pdf/lea...helmintics.pdf

    https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documen...mintics_en.pdf

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  13. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Hi mate. I would see what Paula says.
    And if that don t work. Empty the pond lol
    And do what you have to do. Good deep clean. Drastic I know
    And start again.
    I had to do it when I got the dreaded black algae.
    Nightmare of a job. But it worked.
    Good luck with what you decide mate.
    All the best fred.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  15. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Hi guys and thanks for your replies.

    Both Fiona and Paula have been in touch with me yesterday. The course of action is as follows. Setup up a holding vat (which I have done.) Remove two infested fish from the pond and place them into the holding vat and scrape the body and gill plate and send the video to both of them. Hopefully they will be able to identify which subspecies of Fluke I have. Apparently there's over 700 and counting ! I may have one that conventional treatments simply will not kill and treat with some Fluke Solve to begin with that Fiona sent me in the post. Then monitor.

    Other course of action are to remove all of the fish (if the above works) into holding vats, treat and nuke the pond with Caustic Soda and let it dry for a while.

    I'll keep you up to date with our findings.

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  17. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythril View Post
    Hi guys and thanks for your replies.

    Both Fiona and Paula have been in touch with me yesterday. The course of action is as follows. Setup up a holding vat (which I have done.) Remove two infested fish from the pond and place them into the holding vat and scrape the body and gill plate and send the video to both of them. Hopefully they will be able to identify which subspecies of Fluke I have. Apparently there's over 700 and counting ! I may have one that conventional treatments simply will not kill and treat with some Fluke Solve to begin with that Fiona sent me in the post. Then monitor.

    Other course of action are to remove all of the fish (if the above works) into holding vats, treat and nuke the pond with Caustic Soda and let it dry for a while.

    I'll keep you up to date with our findings.
    Nice one mate. Fingers crossed for you lol
    Good luck with it.
    Nightmare of a job.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  19. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    *Update. Today I have had confirmation that the subspecies of Fluke I have is indeed one that is very hard to kill. Don't ask me it's name, I can't remember but let's call it the Fluke from Hell ! They came over from Japan last year and there have been a few reports of people encountering them.

    At the moment they teo fish are in the holding vat and I'm to scrape later on today. I full expect to find Flukes. Once we have managed to get them under control, I'll report our findings and hopefully it'll help others out.

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  21. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythril View Post
    *Update. Today I have had confirmation that the subspecies of Fluke I have is indeed one that is very hard to kill. Don't ask me it's name, I can't remember but let's call it the Fluke from Hell ! They came over from Japan last year and there have been a few reports of people encountering them.

    At the moment they teo fish are in the holding vat and I'm to scrape later on today. I full expect to find Flukes. Once we have managed to get them under control, I'll report our findings and hopefully it'll help others out.
    Were the fish you bought quarantined and heat ramped before you bought them?

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  23. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythril View Post
    *Update. Today I have had confirmation that the subspecies of Fluke I have is indeed one that is very hard to kill. Don't ask me it's name, I can't remember but let's call it the Fluke from Hell ! They came over from Japan last year and there have been a few reports of people encountering them.

    At the moment they teo fish are in the holding vat and I'm to scrape later on today. I full expect to find Flukes. Once we have managed to get them under control, I'll report our findings and hopefully it'll help others out.
    Thanks for the update mate. Feel for you lol.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  25. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Koi View Post
    Were the fish you bought quarantined and heat ramped before you bought them?
    Good question Tom.
    John

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  27. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Nothing new has been added for about 15 months. All my other purchases are in the cooking pot in the garage at at 22c.

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  29. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Have you been given a treatment regime?

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  31. #20
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Mythril's Avatar
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    Basically yes it's the answer. I need to scrape today again and see if it's working. If I'm in the all clear with the two in the vat back end of next week, then I'll post my findings and treatment schedule. I wouldn't want to start mentioning what I've been doing if it's not worked yet.

    I hope no one else gets this iteration I've got. When Superverm fails, you know you've a serious issue Simply had enough of Flukes !

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