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  1. #141
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Mike Bass's Avatar
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    I feel that stomach churning with you mate, having recently lost 75% of my own pond when trying to will them all to survive after a KH crash, & subsequently bacterial infections that followed.
    1kGal BD/Skim RDF/UV/k1 2.3kGal 2windows 2airBD/skim Sieve/Eazypod RDFcombi+bakki 3xVP/UV,ASHP

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  3. #142
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear this RS. Bad news!

    Good job you reacted when you did.

    Fingers crossed for you that it pans out well for you.

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    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

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  5. #143
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thank you for the kind comments.

    Had no choice but to react really as it would have been obvious even to the newest koi keeper that something had gone awry.

    There's a lot of threads about losses and deaths after using Alparex and tbh I've always suspected it to be due to user error (a lot of people overestimate pond volume) or low KH, but other than the possibility I didn't have enough oxygen going in (not sure how likely as my pond has big surface area and a 100lpm air pump split between pond and bio) I am at a loss to explain what went wrong.

    I dosed 300ml (12,000 litres and pond filled to brim). Air pressure did drop late in the evening as storm clouds passed over which could affect oxygen levels.

    Other than oxygen the only other thing is that I used a bottle of Alparex that had been opened 10 months ago (2022 expiry). But this same bottle was used last year with zero issues.

    Changed 3600 litres so far (crap water pressure here), and hose now off for the night to avoid temp swings.

    Koi have improved a lot since this morning but still got a few on bottom corner ( the corner furthest away from inlet suggesting they're not looking for oxygen) and one with head on the surface (again, not near the returns), but they are periodically swimming around.

    There was one koi totally un-phased by it all and asking for food. So weird.

    I don't even want to go out and check on them as there's nothing I can do now but wait.

    I did add some pond detox formula but can't confirm if that's helping but it is designed to remove toxins so it has to be better than not adding it.

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  7. #144
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    This is the thing, as you said, when there has been deaths for other people etc its almost always down to user error and you think I will make sure everything is spot on when I do it (if needed) and have no issues but then get caught out somehow. I for one will not use alparex now, not because I doubt its effectiveness, but because having suffered the issues I did last year with no real clarity on what caused it, I am not experienced enough to consider using it.

    As it stands I have 2/3 fish with a bit of mucus on them which are all behaving completely normal and feeding well, but I know that I had at least a few trich a month ago when I last scraped and also found a single fluke. I am reluctant to get out and scrape again as I don't like to disturb them when they are seemingly happy but I know I need to, and I know its likely I will need to PP the pond and possibly treat for flukes too. The fluke treatment I am not worried about, but I am reluctant to use PP and only have ST available, no HP.
    Last edited by samp09; 11-05-2021 at 08:20 AM.

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  9. #145
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Am with you on that one Sam. It's not even like pp and a couple of handfuls of St to bring every thing back quick in a hurry.. Don't think that's for any novice like me at all

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  11. #146
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Hope you can get it all sorted RS, what a blow.

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  13. #147
    All sounds rather too familiar. I gave my Alparex away after my experience. I can't guarantee I didn't overlook some crucial factor, but for me I decided not to take the risk of future use.

    So I'm now in that position where I have a healthy Trich population, have fish that look healthy with no signs of stress on their bodies (perhaps a tiny bit more mucus than normal), are eating well and apart from the odd flash and the daily evening Chag "look at me I'm a dolphin show" appear perfectly happy.
    I have PP, ST, HP and a good ORP meter and air pumps and have adminstered this treatment.
    However, I also have a nicely maturing revamped filter and PP isn't fish friendly either and PP hasn't completely erradicted Trich in the past - so you will understand why I am reluctant to proceed........

    Time for someone to discover a fabulous new treatment (I say discover because the R&D budget to develop from scratch might be bigger than the sales market).
    My DIY ponds from 1988 until present day.
    All can be found here:
    https://www.ukzero.com/pond.htm

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  15. #148
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    This is the thing, as you said, when there has been deaths for other people etc its almost always down to user error and you think I will make sure everything is spot on when I do it (if needed) and have no issues but then get caught out somehow. I for one will not use alparex now, not because I doubt its effectiveness, but because having suffered the issues I did last year with no real clarity on what caused it, I am not experienced enough to consider using it.

    As it stands I have 2/3 fish with a bit of mucus on them which are all behaving completely normal and feeding well, but I know that I had at least a few trich a month ago when I last scraped and also found a single fluke. I am reluctant to get out and scrape again as I don't like to disturb them when they are seemingly happy but I know I need to, and I know its likely I will need to PP the pond and possibly treat for flukes too. The fluke treatment I am not worried about, but I am reluctant to use PP and only have ST available, no HP.
    I don't think it is about not being experienced enough - This is a product advertised to do a job (like any other pond "medication") with limited instructions that leave you with more questions than answers (like any other pond "medication") and you put your trust in it.

    All I can say is there is something Colombo are missing, there is obviously a set of parameters that can cause things to go wrong when using it.

    Due to my hard water I have quadruple dosed malachite green in my pond before with no issues, so I'd be very surprised if it is the malachite aspect causing the problems.

    At the same time, whilst I've not used Acriflavine for a long time, it is relatively mild in the sense that you can use it on goldfish eggs and fry, and use it when fish are healing from injuries etc to stop bactierial infection and fungus.

    As individual products neither of them claim to deal with parasites.

    Yet combined in the form of Alparex they wipe out parasites.

    So it would seem mixing them is when things start to happen.

    Could be wrong here but I think both chemicals are essentially dye's, and dying single celled organisms affects their biological processes, possibly by preventing reproduction or by preventing them from feeding (could be way off the mark here, trying to remember science lessons from school).


    Anyway, the Koi are all still alive this morning but are grouped together dead still in the water and not moving, some just under the surface, some mid-way down, and some on the bottom. The one that was hanging from surface yesterday is now at mid-level.

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  17. #149
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukzero View Post
    All sounds rather too familiar. I gave my Alparex away after my experience. I can't guarantee I didn't overlook some crucial factor, but for me I decided not to take the risk of future use.

    So I'm now in that position where I have a healthy Trich population, have fish that look healthy with no signs of stress on their bodies (perhaps a tiny bit more mucus than normal), are eating well and apart from the odd flash and the daily evening Chag "look at me I'm a dolphin show" appear perfectly happy.
    I have PP, ST, HP and a good ORP meter and air pumps and have adminstered this treatment.
    However, I also have a nicely maturing revamped filter and PP isn't fish friendly either and PP hasn't completely erradicted Trich in the past - so you will understand why I am reluctant to proceed........

    Time for someone to discover a fabulous new treatment (I say discover because the R&D budget to develop from scratch might be bigger than the sales market).
    I can see and understand your fears.

    A bit less confident in suggesting something following my experience over the last 24 hours, but I have previously killed everything from flukes to costia using CT and with zero negative effects on the Koi. However, the dose I used was a lot higher than the recommended dose, was after consulting with experts and was a dose specific to my water hardness and pH.

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  19. #150
    Hi RS
    I have just had a successful treatment with the Alparex (no deaths) and I am with you on the instructions, very brief and leaves lots of questions unanswered. If Colombo had an online chat service that would be useful. I dosed exactly as per instructions.

    Although I had no deaths, the fish did not like the treatment and they are still not completely back to normal in terms of feeding but some of that could be due to water changes or NPS. It would have all been worth it if it’s wiped out the whitespot and anything else nasty but need to do more scrapes this weekend to be sure (chags mucus has cleared up).

    I am still very new to this and all my fish are relatively small (biggest are around 12-14”) so size may be a factor, the OP’s fish were all quite large. This has been a baptism of fire for me!

    I upped the temperature to 19c and had the water blade on during the day but put the poly covers on at night. 45lpm air in my moving bed for a 7000l pond.


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  21. #151
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grommett View Post
    Hi RS
    I have just had a successful treatment with the Alparex (no deaths) and I am with you on the instructions, very brief and leaves lots of questions unanswered. If Colombo had an online chat service that would be useful. I dosed exactly as per instructions.

    Although I had no deaths, the fish did not like the treatment and they are still not completely back to normal in terms of feeding but some of that could be due to water changes or NPS. It would have all been worth it if it’s wiped out the whitespot and anything else nasty but need to do more scrapes this weekend to be sure (chags mucus has cleared up).

    I am still very new to this and all my fish are relatively small (biggest are around 12-14”) so size may be a factor, the OP’s fish were all quite large. This has been a baptism of fire for me!

    I upped the temperature to 19c and had the water blade on during the day but put the poly covers on at night. 45lpm air in my moving bed for a 7000l pond.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I have to say the photo of your Chag in the top corner is reminiscent of how my Shiro was all day yesterday.

    She is so veiny she looks pink, and just hung at the surface all day yesterday with the top of her head just out the water. At first she didn't respond when I touched her, but later in the day she'd get startled and go flying around the pond crashing into things before settling back into the top corner:







    Hose is on full bore again today, and all Koi grouped together "frozen" in the water. There is also this foam stuff that I didn't get last time I used Alparex, but have actually had something similar when I used Lernex before.



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  23. #152
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I don't think it is about not being experienced enough - This is a product advertised to do a job (like any other pond "medication") with limited instructions that leave you with more questions than answers (like any other pond "medication") and you put your trust in it.

    All I can say is there is something Colombo are missing, there is obviously a set of parameters that can cause things to go wrong when using it.

    Due to my hard water I have quadruple dosed malachite green in my pond before with no issues, so I'd be very surprised if it is the malachite aspect causing the problems.

    At the same time, whilst I've not used Acriflavine for a long time, it is relatively mild in the sense that you can use it on goldfish eggs and fry, and use it when fish are healing from injuries etc to stop bactierial infection and fungus.

    As individual products neither of them claim to deal with parasites.

    Yet combined in the form of Alparex they wipe out parasites.

    So it would seem mixing them is when things start to happen.

    Could be wrong here but I think both chemicals are essentially dye's, and dying single celled organisms affects their biological processes, possibly by preventing reproduction or by preventing them from feeding (could be way off the mark here, trying to remember science lessons from school).


    Anyway, the Koi are all still alive this morning but are grouped together dead still in the water and not moving, some just under the surface, some mid-way down, and some on the bottom. The one that was hanging from surface yesterday is now at mid-level.
    It does make you think, for example a garden centre with an aquatics dept local to me sells aparex and I shuddered at the thought of how many average pond owners who literally just see an ulcer or something, explain it to the shop or read the label and chuck it in without a further thought then wake up to a pond full of dead fish!

    I was told in the past that acraflavin is exceptionally mild and people have used up to 4 times the dose with no issue whatsoever, so as you say it makes you wonder why when combined the outcome is seemingly 50/50 on whether your fish will be ok., obvious I know that chemicals mixed can cause serious issues but it still seems baffling the inconsistency and like you say, the fact that you can tick every safety box to use it then find your fish at deaths door.

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  25. #153
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    It does make you think, for example a garden centre with an aquatics dept local to me sells aparex and I shuddered at the thought of how many average pond owners who literally just see an ulcer or something, explain it to the shop or read the label and chuck it in without a further thought then wake up to a pond full of dead fish!

    I was told in the past that acraflavin is exceptionally mild and people have used up to 4 times the dose with no issue whatsoever, so as you say it makes you wonder why when combined the outcome is seemingly 50/50 on whether your fish will be ok., obvious I know that chemicals mixed can cause serious issues but it still seems baffling the inconsistency and like you say, the fact that you can tick every safety box to use it then find your fish at deaths door.
    Agree, it is baffling.

    There are Dealers who use it all the time with no issues.

    I am sure any Dealer reading this would be thinking people are doing something wrong. Some people might have, but I followed instructions to the letter. Did not overdose by a single milliliter, under-dosed if anything, and only half dose at that since it is to be administered over 2 days.

    Also did 15% water change the day prior to treatment plus had changed 40% of water in the preceding 10 days.

    KH is likely a factor for a lot of people - instructions used to say KH above 4, then 5 and now 6-8. That must exclude half the UK from using it.

    Instructions make no mention of increasing aeration.

    Instructions say not to use within 4 weeks of any product containing flubendazole, but then on next page recommends using Lernex 2 weeks after Alparex!

    I wonder if organics in the pond could be a factor? My Nitrates and Phosphates are quite high.

    Does having previously opened the bottle 10 months ago cause it to "steep" thus increasing the strength? If I make a batch of vape juice up and leave it with lid off for a week it gets quite a bit stronger.

    I am leaning towards Oxygen being a factor. That is the biggest difference in my pond over the last year. Half the Koi at or over 50cm now, probably 200cm extra Koi since treating last year. None were gasping or hanging around inlet, but its all I can think of.

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  27. #154
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    So sorry to hear this went so badly for you RS.

    If any of you are worried about using Alparex (understandably) then you can always consider using ICC from Duncan G’s chemical factory. I’m not 100% sure what’s in it and Duncan isn’t saying, but combined with 0.6% salt it makes short work of costia without affecting the fish badly at all.

    PP gets a lot of scary stories written about it, but I’ve never known it to go wrong for someone who’s read up on what they are doing first and based their treatment of 4 hours in the pink only, using accurate scales and a known pond volume, and a ‘safe’ treatment dose not the double and triple doses you hear of some foolhardy souls using. When I’ve occasionally used PP my fish have actually enjoyed it (I think because it takes the pheromones out of the water and makes them horny!). It usually makes mine spawn afterwards. I would use PP with considerably more confidence than Alparex, because PP has an instant antidote you can throw in if any fish are in trouble. In the right hands I think this actually makes it one of the safest treatments for the fish (less so the operator if you don’t wear PPE).
    Last edited by Feline; 11-05-2021 at 11:48 AM.

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  29. #155
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    The only problem I had with PP was that I found more Costia and Chilodonella on the slide after using it than I did before!

    The water clarity looked amazing once neutralised though.

    When I used PP I had 160 lpm of aeration going in, plus I attached "periscopes" to the pond returns to increase aeration, plus 2 pumps submersed with pipes out the water, all to maximise oxygen levels.

    I did the same when treating with FMG, and wonder if I should have done it with the Alparex as well. Will never know if it might have made the difference.

    Last edited by RS2OOO; 11-05-2021 at 12:02 PM.

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  31. #156
    Hi RS

    My Doitsu Sanke looked a bit like your Shiro, not quite as bad, and even the chag was quite veiny.


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  33. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    It does make you think, for example a garden centre with an aquatics dept local to me sells aparex and I shuddered at the thought of how many average pond owners who literally just see an ulcer or something, explain it to the shop or read the label and chuck it in without a further thought then wake up to a pond full of dead fish!
    I must say I have learned loads from this forum over the last 12 months and even more during the last 6 months that I actually have fish. There must be so many people that go in to this blindly and lose fish and never know why. A friend of mine has a tiny nature pond 2-3000 liters with 20 koi! He recently lost the lot and put it down to a contractor cutting back trees and the clippings falling in the pond.


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  35. #158
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hope it all comes ok for you Rs really feel for you,not nice to see your koi suffering.

    Dont know what to suggest but keep at the water changes as your doing mate and plenty of s/t.
    Can you not get in touch with the manufacturers and see what they say,but they will probably say you did something wrong.
    As you say could be the opened date expired.

    Never used the stuff so I cant judge on it Rs.
    John

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  37. #159
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Cheers John.

    Not going to bother getting in touch with manufacturer, as you suggest they'll likely say I stored the container wrong or that fish can react badly to any medication and should be monitored etc.

    Changed 7000 litres now of the 12,000 volume and have switched hose off as it gets to a point where I'm worried such a large water change could affect the ponds maturity leading to other issues.

    10 of the 14 are sitting on the bottom all huddled together, none are clamped and breathing looks close to normal. Oddly enough the shiro that was floating on the surface all day yesterday is swimming around.

    None have asked for food.

    Will administer another dose of pond detox formula this evening and probably turn UV back on.

    I think another 24 hours before I'm fully out of the woods and can breathe again!

    Chlorine is zero. Not tested anything else today but will start keeping an eye on ammonia and nitrites from tomorrow just in case bio has been hit.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 11-05-2021 at 05:04 PM.

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  39. #160
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Steve's koi's Avatar
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    Sorry to here about your troubles RS, hope all goes well for you mate.

    Just a quick thought RS, do you think the use by date was for before it was opened. or for once opened, as most used by dates are for unopened. Or did it say once open use by......Your problem with the Alparex could lie there mate.

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